Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 45659
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2024/11/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/23   

2007/2/5-8 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:45659 Activity:kinda low
2/5     Boredcast Message from 'psb': Sun Feb  4 17:16:42 2007
        as brad delong might say:
        run over krauthhammer now:
        http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTFhZGJiNWZjNzk2Zjg3N2YzODhmZDY0YWI3N2RiMmE=
                (btw, i didnt put this in the motd. although i do think
                krauthhammer is a human cockroach --psb)
        \_ Okay, I've read the article--don't see much of a problem. Any other
           opinions you recommend killing people over?
           \_ I think fuckwits who take things too literally should be forced
              to swallow drano.
              \- there is at least one sloda user who has consumed drano.
                 (i am not kidding)
        \_ What about it?  He's stuck on drawing artificial lines between
           groups, as if all Shia should be on the same side and give him a
           nice little easy to write article about the Sunni/Shia war with
           some nice sound bites thrown in about what other countries support
           which side.  He's only an article writer.  He doesn't actually
           know (or have to) know anything.
           \_ Should he be killed?
              \_ Of course not.  He's just an opinion writer.  He gets paid
                 to write stuff other people will re-post elsewhere to increase
                 hit counts and ad revenues.  He is doing his job and harming
                 no one.
                 \_ Peddling hate hurts no one? Tell that to all the Iraqis
                    dead by sectarian violence.
                    \_ Please quote a few lines of "hate" with context.  And
                       generally, yes, even if he was a hate peddler, it hurts
                       no one because he has no power or influence.
        \_ Many of us warned his ilk that civil war would be the inevitable
           outcome of breaking up the "strong center" in Iraq. The arrogant
           neocons ignored us, as they ignored most of the world's warnings.
           Now blood is on their hands and they want to deny responsibility
           for it. Bullshit. These guys are just as responsible for the
           upcoming deaths of millions as Stalin was for starving the Kulaks.
           \_ I believe the problem wasn't taking out Saddam but having no
              real post-Saddam plan.  I became very concerned when the invasion
              part was over and they didn't declare martial law and mop up.
              I'm not sure what they did for those first few precious weeks but
              I think everything was lost right there.
              \_ Considering the very long history of Sunni-Shi'ite violence
                 I don't think it would have mattered. Just maybe we could
                 have replaced one strongman with another. In any case, hubris
                 led to the neocons and those in power to not have a contingency
                 plan.
                 \_ The Sunni and Shia live in neighboring countries and as
                    neighbors within countries all over the middle east without
                    killing each other on a daily basis.  There is no reason
                    to believe that only a mass murderer like Hussein could
                    keep that in check.  Or actually, no, he didn't try, he
                    was Sunni and was butching about 5,000 Sunni a month for
                    decades.
2024/11/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/23   

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Cache (4334 bytes)
article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTFhZGJiNWZjNzk2Zjg3N2YzODhmZDY0YWI3N2RiMmE=
February 2, 2007 12:00 AM Iraqs Choice They were given their freedom and yet many have chosen civil war. By Charles Krauthammer This week the internecine warfare in Iraq, already bewildering Sunni vs. infidel, with various Iranians, Syrians, and assorted freelancers thrown into the maelstrom went bizarre. In one of the biggest battles of the war, Iraqi troops reinforced by Americans wiped out a heavily armed, well-entrenched millenarian Shiite sect preparing to take over Najaf, kill the moderate Shiite clergy (including Grand Ayatollah Sistani) and proclaim its leader the returned messiah. The battle was a success 263 extremists killed, 502 captured. But the sight of the US caught within a Shiite-Shiite fight within the larger Shiite-Sunni civil war can only lead to further discouragement of Americans, already deeply dismayed at the notion of being caught in the middle of endless civil strife. Some, like the fundamental division between Sunni and Shiite, are ancient. Some of the wounds are more contemporary, most notably the social devastation and political ruin brought upon the country by 30 years of Saddamist totalitarianism and its particularly sadistic persecution of Shiites and Kurds. America comes and liberates them from the tyrant who kept everyone living in fear, and the ancient animosities and more recent resentments begin to play themselves out to deadly effect. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have died, the overwhelming majority of them killed by Sunni insurgents, Baathist dead-enders and their al Qaeda allies who carry on the Saddamist pogroms. Much of their killing the murder of innocent Shiites in their mosques and markets is bereft of politics. It is meant to satisfy instead an atavistic hatred of the Shiite heresy. The late al Qaeda leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was even chided by headquarters in Afghanistan for his relish in killing Shiites for the sport of it. Iraqis were given their freedom and yet many have chosen civil war. Among all these religious prejudices, ancient wounds, social resentments, and tribal antagonisms, who gets the blame for the rivers of blood? You can always count on some to find the blame in America. "We did not give them a republic," insists Newsweek's Fareed Zakaria. Of all the accounts of the current situation, this is by far the most stupid. Did Britain "give" India the Hindu-Muslim war of 1947-48 that killed a million souls and ethnically cleansed 12 million more? Do the police in America have on their hands the blood of the 16,000 murders they failed to prevent last year? Thousands of brave American soldiers have died trying to counter, put down and prevent civil strife. They fight Sunni insurgents in Fallujah, Ramadi and Baghdad, trying to keep them from sending yet one more suicide bomber into a crowded Shiite market. They hunt Shiite death squads in Baghdad to keep them from rounding up random Sunnis and torturing them to death. Just this week, we lost two helicopter pilots who were supporting the troops on the ground fighting the "Soldiers of Heaven" outside Najaf to prevent the slaughter of innocents in a Shiite-Shiite war within a war. Our entire strategy has been to fight one side and then the other to try to prevent sectarian violence a policy that has been one of the leading reasons why Americans are ready to quit and walk away. They can understand one-front wars, but they can't understand two-, three- and four-front wars, with Americans fighting any and all in sequence and sometimes in combination. And at the political level, we've been doing everything we can to bring reconciliation. We got the Sunnis to participate in elections and then in parliament. Who is pushing the Shiite-Kurdish coalition for a law that would distribute oil revenues to the Sunnis? Who is pushing for a more broad-based government to exclude Moqtada al-Sadr and his sectarian Mahdi Army? But when Arabs kill Arabs and Shiites kill Shiites and Sunnis kill all in a spasm of violence that is blind and furious and has roots in hatreds born long before America was even a republic, to place the blame on the one player, the one country, the one military that has done more than any other to try to separate the combatants and bring conciliation is simply perverse. It willfully overlooks the plainest of facts: Iraq is their country.