Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 45155
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2025/05/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/23    

2006/11/3-4 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:45155 Activity:low
11/3    http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/12/neocons200612
        Leading neo-cons assume no blame for ideas, but blame Dubya admin for
        terrible execution
        (I can't decide whose pic is worse:  Dubya's or Condi's)
        \_ Annie Leibovitz clearly knows what she's doing.  -tom
        \_ Dubya's picture was taken with a wide-angle lens at close range.
           Either it was a lousy photog, or the photog did it on purpose.
           \_ It's Annie Leibovitz.  It's on purpose.  -tom
        \_ What Condi's pic?
           \_ page 3
        \_ We know execution was terrible.  There is little to dispute on
           that point.  It is just a case of do you believe American power
           should be used to "right wrongs" around the world or not?  Places
           like Darfur and *many* others can't be rectified by diplomacy so
           the choice is invade/attack or ignore genocide.  Some philosophies
           say "screw em, not our problem, not worth our blood and treasure",
           the neocons disagree.  If you're ok with the Saddams of the world
           and more Darfur genocide then you're not a neocon.  /shrug
           \_ Iraq is not Darfur.  As bad as Saddam was he wasn't slaughtering
              millions.
              \_ Millions aren't dead in Darfur either.  Yet.  'Just' a few
                 hundred thousand or so.  Saddam was estimated to be killing
                 about 5000 Iraqi's a *month* which was going on for how many
                 years?  There is little difference if you're only looking at
                 body count as your measure to take action or not.
                 \_ First, the number is probably being pumped up, just like
                    everything else.  Secondly, under *OUR* rule, we got
                    about 100 guys killed EVERY DAY.  that is almost 3000
                    Iraqis a MONTH.  According to *YOU* even with the
                    violance today, Iraqis *ARE* better off today than under
                    Saddam.  But for some weird reason, every poll conducted
                    by every country has said otherwise.
            \_ The Neocons arguement has never primarily been humanitarian.
               They argue that our countries best interests are promoted
               by spreading democracy and "Western Values." The humanitarian
               argument is sort of tangential to this. And of course, the
               number of bodies is an important consideration in deciding
               if it is worth taking action.
               \_ I am not sure what this "Western Value" means.  I think
                  it really means "western value defined by US government."
                  Frankly, I don't think Neo cons believe in Western Value
                  themselves.  This administration is by far most secretive
                  and imperial administaration since Nixon.  In terms of
                  human right violations, they are rapidly approaching
                  Eisenhoers and FDR's administarations.
2025/05/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/23    

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www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/12/neocons200612
RSS Vanity Fair Exclusive: Now They Tell Us Neo Culpa As Iraq slips further into chaos, the war's neoconservative boosters have turned sharply on the Bush administration, charging that their grand designshave been undermined by White House incompetence. In a series of exclusiveinterviews, Richard Perle, Kenneth Adelman, David Frum, and others play the blame game with shocking frankness. I remember sitting with Richard Perle in his suite at London's Grosvenor House hotel and receiving a private lecture on the importance of securing victory in Iraq. "Iraq is a very good candidate for democratic reform," he said. "It won't be Westminster overnight, but the great democracies of the world didn't achieve the full, rich structure of democratic governance overnight. Perle seemed to exude the scent of liberation, as well as a whiff of gunpowder. It was February 2003, and Operation Iraqi Freedom, the culmination of his long campaign on behalf of regime change in Iraq, was less than a month away. Three years later, Perle and I meet again at his home outside Washington, DC It is October, the worst month for US casualties in Iraq in almost two years, and Republicans are bracing for losses in the upcoming midterm elections. As he looks into my eyes, speaking slowly and with obvious deliberation, Perle is unrecognizable as the confident hawk who, as chairman of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee, had invited the exiled Iraqi dissident Ahmad Chalabi to its first meeting after 9/11. "The levels of brutality that we've seen are truly horrifying, and I have to say, I underestimated the depravity," Perle says now, adding that total defeat--an American withdrawal that leaves Iraq as an anarchic "failed state"--is not yet inevitable but is becoming more likely. "And then," says Perle, "you'll get all the mayhem that the world is capable of creating." According to Perle, who left the Defense Policy Board in 2004, this unfolding catastrophe has a central cause: devastating dysfunction within the administration of President George W Bush. Perle says, "The decisions did not get made that should have been. They didn't get made in a timely fashion, and the differences were argued out endlessly.... At the end of the day, you have to hold the president responsible.... I don't think he realized the extent of the opposition within his own administration, and the disloyalty." I don't say that because I no longer believe that Saddam had the capability to produce weapons of mass destruction, or that he was not in contact with terrorists. Could we have managed that threat by means other than a direct military intervention? Having spoken with Perle, I wonder: What do the rest of the pro-war neoconservatives think? If the much caricatured "Prince of Darkness" is now plagued with doubt, how do his comrades-in-arms feel? I am particularly interested in finding out because I interviewed many neocons before the invasion and, like many people, found much to admire in their vision of spreading democracy in the Middle East. What I find instead is despair, and fury at the incompetence of the Bush administration the neoconservatives once saw as their brightest hope. To David Frum, the former White House speechwriter who co-wrote Bush's 2002 State of the Union address that accused Iraq of being part of an "axis of evil," it now looks as if defeat may be inescapable, because "the insurgency has proven it can kill anyone who cooperates, and the United States and its friends have failed to prove that it can protect them." This situation, he says, must ultimately be blamed on "failure at the center"--starting with President Bush.