Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 44774
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2025/05/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/24    

2006/10/11-13 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:44774 Activity:low 80%like:44769
10/11   The invasion of Iraq may have caused 650,000 Iraqi deaths.
        http://tinyurl.com/fjqs7 (online.wsj.com)
        \_ Yawn.  May have?  In the same way there was 'up to' 800 killed on
           the Bay Bridge from the Loma Prieta quake as reported by the Daily
           Cal.  These guys admit they time and public with a political
           agenda.  Where are these 650k bodies?  They don't just vanish like
           in a video game.
        \_ Video of Lancet editor speaking at anti-war rally:
           http://csua.org/u/h5w
        \_ "caused" -- no.  This is Lancet II.  Once again timed to come out
           just before an election.
           \_ do you have a point?
           \_ The Lancet debunkers have been...debunked.
              \_ Well, I was the most outspoken critic of the Lancet study.
                 Some good arguments here convinced me I was wrong about a bias
                 from selecting locations.  However, the motives of getting the
                 result out just before an election, and the trust that any
                 errors in the study trended towards a lower mortality rate are
                 still there. -emarkp
                 \_ Do you still believe the Iraq War is the right thing?
                    \_ He's not replying because he's still embarrassed
                       about his stance that he no longer believes in:
                       http://csua.com/?entry=35423
                    \_ It was the right thing.  The post war plan was either
                       non-existent or executed poorly.  There's a difference.
                       \_ The pre- and post-war planning was misguided.
                 \_ So they should have waited until after the election, like
                    James Baker's "secret plan" to fix the war?
                    \_ No, but "rushing" the study to get it out before the
                       election is a bit problematic. -emarkp
                       \_ I really doubt anything like this actually affects
                          elections. People pretty much either know about this
                          stuff or don't care. To the latter this is more
                          noise. To the former they already have their opinion.
                          \_ Actually, the non-partisan voters are increasing.
                             And for people on the fence, this may make a
                             difference.
                             \_ People on the fence about this particular
                                issue are idiots. I doubt they would even
                                hear about this.
                             \_ Actually, they are not.  The true "genius"
                                of Karl Rove was his realization that the
                                mythical "swing voters" were disappearing,
                                and the way to win elections was purely
                                through base-pandering (c.f. 2004 election).
                                \_ At least here in CA, (I) is growing, while
                                   (R) and (D) are shrinking.
                                   \_ Because many non-motd readers have
                                      figured out that both parties suck and
                                      are full of criminals at the top.
                \_ There's always an election coming up somewhere.
                   \_ Last study came out Oct 2004.  This time Oct 2006.
2025/05/24 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/24    

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2011/11/6-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:54212 Activity:nil
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        \_ Bad conservatives. You should never change your mind, and you
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2010/9/26-30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53966 Activity:nil
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2010/7/20-8/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53889 Activity:low
7/20    Is jblack still on? What about the rest of the pro-war cheerleaders?
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100720/ap_on_re_eu/eu_britain_iraq_inquiry
        \_ War is fought for the glory of generals and the economics of the
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2010/2/22-3/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53722 Activity:nil
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        \_ Political stability, military strategy (Iran), and to prevent
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tinyurl.com/fjqs7 -> online.wsj.com/article_email/article_print/SB116052896787288831-lMyQjAxMDE2NjEwMDUxMjA4Wj.html
DIGEST OF EARNINGS Details of the latest corporate earnings reported for FREE. Iraqi Death Toll Exceeds 600,000, Study Estimates By NEIL KING JR. Page A4 WASHINGTON -- A new study asserts that roughly 600,000 Iraqis have died from violence since the US-led invasion in March 2003, a figure many times higher than any previous estimate. The study, to be published Saturday in the British medical journal the Lancet, was conducted by the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health by sending teams of Iraqi doctors across Iraq from May through July. The findings are sure to draw fire from skeptics and could color the debate over the war ahead of congressional elections next month. The Defense Department until 2004 eschewed any effort to compute the number of Iraqi dead but this summer released a study putting the civilian casualty rate between May and August at 117 people a day. Other tabulations using different methodologies put the range of total civilian fatalities so far from about 50,000 to more than 150,000. President Bush in December said "30,000, more or less" had died in Iraq during the invasion and in the violence since. The Johns Hopkins team conducted its study using a methodology known as "cluster sampling." That involved randomly picking 47 clusters of households for a total 1,849 households, scattered across Iraq. Team members interviewed each household about any deaths in the family during the 40 months since the invasion, as well as in the year before the invasion. The team says it reviewed death certificates for 92% of all deaths reported. Based on those figures, it tabulated national mortality rates for various periods before and after the start of the war. The mortality rate last year was nearly four times the preinvasion rate, the study found. "Since March 2003, an additional 25% of Iraq's population has died above what would have occurred without conflict," the report said. Human Rights Watch has estimated Saddam Hussein's regime killed 250,000 to 290,000 people over 20 years. The Lancet study, funded largely by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Center for International Studies, said while the percentage of deaths attributed to the US-led coalition has decreased over the past year, coalition forces were involved in 31% of all violent deaths since March 2003. Most of the deaths in Iraq, particularly in the past two years, have been caused by insurgent, terrorist and sectarian violence. Overall, the study found 55% of deaths since March 2003 were due to violence. car bombs and other explosives accounted for 27%, and airstrikes caused 13%. Paul Bolton, a public-health researcher at Boston University who has reviewed the study, called the methodology "excellent" and said it was standard procedure in a wide range of studies he has worked on. "You can't be sure of the exact number, but you can be quite sure that you are in the right ballpark," he said. A similar, smaller study by the same team in 2004 put the number of deaths at the time at 9,000 to 194,000. In part to offset such criticism, the researchers said they picked the largest sample possible for this survey, after considering the high level of danger involved in sending teams door-to-door in Iraq. The study's lead researchers, Gilbert Burnham and Les Roberts of Johns Hopkins, have done studies in the Congo, Rwanda and other war zones. "This is a standard methodology that the US government and others have encouraged groups to use in developing countries," said Mr Burnham, who defended the study as "a scientifically extremely strong paper." This study, "The Human Cost of the War in Iraq," puts civilian fatalities at 426,369 to 793,663, with a 95% certainty that the figure falls in that range, and the highest probability given to the figure of 601,027. Hamit Dardagan, co-founder of Iraq Body Count, a London-based human-rights group, called the Lancet study's figures "pretty shockingly high." His group tabulates the civilian death toll based on media reports augmented by local hospital and morgue records. His group says it has accumulated reports of as many as 48,693 civilian deaths caused by the US intervention. Mr Burnham said the disparity between his survey and tabulations like Iraq Body Count are largely because of the heavy media and government focus on Baghdad and a few other cities. "What our data show is that the level of violence is going on throughout the country," he said. Mark Ballesteros, a Defense Department spokesman, said the Pentagon doesn't comment on reports that haven't been publicly released. Nonetheless, he said, "the coalition takes enormous precautions to prevent civilian deaths and injuries," adding that "the Iraqi ministry of health would be in a better position, with all of its records, to provide more accurate information on deaths in Iraq." Since 2004, the Pentagon has collected data on civilian deaths in incidents where coalition forces were involved. According to its August civilian-casualty report, those figures show that the daily civilian death rate has increased nearly sixfold, to almost 120 this summer from about 20 in early 2004. The Lancet study cites the Pentagon's numbers to back its own findings, saying the mortality-rate increases in both tabulations closely parallel one another. Corrections & Amplifications: A Johns Hopkins survey of civilian casualties in Iraq, "The Human Cost of the War in Iraq," gave a 95% certainty to the figure being between 426,269 and 793,663, with the highest probability given to the figure of 601,027. The initial version of this article said the study gave a 95% certainty to the 601,027 figure.
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csua.org/u/h5w -> littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22920_Lancet_Editor-_Certified_Moonbat&only
next entry: Aircraft Crashes into NY Building Wednesday, October 11, 2006 Lancet Editor: Certified Moonbat The Lancet report claiming an absurdly inflated number of casualties in Iraq is all over the news today. Here's some context that media isn't giving you, in a video clip from the recent "Time To Go" demonstration of the UK Stop The War Coalition, at which Lancet editor Richard Horton was a star speaker--sharing the stage with luminaries such as George Galloway.
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csua.com/?entry=35423
Do you think the war in Iraq has made the world safer, and why? What do you think about the worldly perception of the US, from Western European nations, Asia, Africa, and others? Also, what do you think about Darfur, and do you think it is a good idea to install democracy there the same way we're doing in Iraq? How about Iran and Syria, don't they deserve democracy as well? Thanks, just trying to get more insight -moderate \_ - Yes, I think the war in Iraq has made the world safer, because: - Saddam was personally financing Palestinian suicide bombers - Saddam's regime had state-sponsored rape, etc. I think if the UN is to be useful it should expel all non-democracies. I don't see any good guys there that we could support to sustain a democracy. Hopefully with a democracy on their borders, the people of Iran can bring about change.