8/3     Doing bench press, which bar grip most stresses the pecs:
        wide or close?
        \_ wide.  close works the triceps more.  think about straight pushups
           vs. diamonds.
           \_ yeah ok... some dumb girl who worked at 24h tried to tell me the
              the opposite.
        \_ Related question:  Is there a standard for how much the bars
           weigh?  -John
           \_ ED!!!!!!!!
           \_ I think 45lbs is pretty standard.
              \_ Yah, I think that's right:
                 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_bar      -mice
              \_ Kewl, thanks.  OK here's another question:  after years of
                 neglect (occasional sports, eating & drinking too much, etc.)
                 I'm trying to get into shape again.  Given 4x workouts per
                 week (3-4 weight exercises per workout, 5x10 reps per weight,
                 and pushing myself to the limit, plus approx. 45-60min
                 cardio each time, what's a reasonable expectation for
                 getting into really hot-shit look-good-in-almost-anything
                 shape?  I started at about 6'1", ca. 200lbs and little
                 muscle about a month ago and have a pretty good, balanced
                 weight regimen...anyone?  -John
                 \_ I say this every time it comes up on the motd, and get
                    shouted down every time, but I'm going to say it again.
                    I believe that the most important aspect of any workout
                    plan based on health goals is whether you are likely to
                    stick with it for many years.  I also believe that with
                    very very few exceptions, normal people tend to find
                    weight lifting and running in circles to be very boring.
                    By this arguement, how many "reps" one does it not the
                    point.  The point is whether your mind will still be
                    engadged in that crap 20 years from now.  For the
                    Governator, that's true with weightlifting, but that's
                    just not normal.  I say look at the sports where you're
                    participating with people from teenagers thru guys in
                    their 70's, and go for that.  I don't workout to look
                    buff as a 30 year old, I work out with the intent to
                    still be in decent, healthy shape, enjoying my sport
                    when I'm 75.
                    \_ so... what's your sport?
                       \_ Judo.  I've met several judo practitioners in their
                          70's.  Sure, they mostly just shuffle around the
                          mat teaching the younger generation, but they're
                          still in damn good shape for their age.  Also, I
                          like having a coach in a sport who has 50 years'
                          experience in the sport.
                          \_ Ok. Well, you know I agree with you about cardio
                             being extremely boring. I have a hard time
                             getting myself to stay even 5 minutes on a
                             cardio machine. So I try to do other stuff for
                             that but I don't mind a bit of weightlifting.
                             1 hour 3x a week does a lot and I find it
                             feels pretty good. I catch some TV while I'm at
                             it. Most sports including Judo seem mostly
                             to help aerobic fitness.
                             \_ Find a gym with good TVs, a magazine
                                collection, and a row of stairmasters in
                                front of whatever machine it is you use.
                                Entertainment galore!  :-)  -John
                    \_ You may not enjoy it; I've been doing it on and off
                       for the past 10 years, with varying intensity.  It's
                       like shooting; it helps me focus and relax.  To each
                       his own.  As far as "crap" and "not normal" go, nobody
                       is forcing you.  -John
                       \_ If you actually enjoy weighlifting, than you are
                          in compliance with my worldview and I have no
                          further comments.  I apologize for the use of the
                          word "crap" in this context.
                 \_ It really depends.  As a very general suggestion, low
                    weights, high reps if you're looking to build tone and/or
                    endurance.  High weights, low reps if you're looking to
                    build strength/bulk.  I wouldn't do more than 3 sets for
                    a given exercise unless your focus is to build endurance.
                    Ideally, you should be at a weight where you r2d2 on the
                    last or second to last rep of the last set.  If you still
                    have juice after the set: 1) you're doing the exercises
                    in the wrong order, 2) you're using a weight which is too
                    low, 3) your form is bad or 4) you're going too fast.
                    You can see appreciable results even on flyweights if you
                    slow yourself down to a 5 or 7 count.
                    You almost definitely want to do your cardio *after* you
                    lift, or you're going to burn off the nutrients to really
                    work the muscles.
                    Be sure to check with someone in the know what the proper
                    form for an exercise is, or you'll likely end up wasting
                    time, energy, and possibly risking injury (I learned that
                    lesson the hard way).
                    Also have someone you trust check in on your form once
                    in awhile to help keep yourself honest (again, bad form ==
                    waste of time).
                    Lastly, diet >>>>> lifting.  You'll get far, far better
                    results if you exercise even mild discipline over what you
                    eat -- I suck at that.  Ultimately, if your diet isn't
                    good, you're going to waste alot of time making up the
                    difference.  Bandwidth++ -- feel free to email
                    if you want to chat more.                        -mice
                    \_ But isn't "tone" basically low fat + some muscles for
                       definition? Endurance, well, obviously it's easier to
                       lift 100 of a light weight than a heavy weight. So
                       building muscle capacity should help endurance.
                       I guess what I'm saying is I'm kind of dubious on the
                       value of high reps for anything. At some point I guess
                       you might want to avoid bulking up, but starting from
                       nothing, I think you'd still have to build a base for a
                       while. That's my current theory anyway.
                       \_ 1) Tone != Bulk, 2) Endurance != Strength.
                          \_ this is contentless.
                             \_ *sigh*  Yeah, I know -- I disagree with you
                                pretty strongly, actually, but I've already
                                spent too much time playing motd today.
                                Feel free to email me and tell me how dumb I
                                am, and I'll argue with you as time allows. =)
                 \_ Dunno but I think 5x10 reps is too much. 3x8 is better
                    (with heavy weight). You have that cardio to burn fat. You
                    want to lift more weight to build muscle, not do 50 reps
                    of some small weight. Also it will take less time and
                    help you keep it up. And/or do more exercises. Anyway
                    that's just some advice I've read but it makes sense to
                    me. I used to do 5x10 and it seemed like more work for less
                    results.
                    \- if your goal is to "look good" in the sense of
                       6pack etc, i think it is harder to get down your
                       6pack etc, i think it is harder to reduce your
                       fat level so the 6pack is visible than just being
                       in good shape, i.e. having the 6pack hidden by
                       bacon. building muscle not too hard ... eat protein
                       and lift.
                    \_ OK Thanks; I was taught the 5x10 thing by a friend
                       in college who was pretty ripped--his point was to
                       always find the maximum weight where you could do 2x10,
                       then maybe 1x9, 1x8, 1x7 or so.  I'll try that, though.
        \_ I like to grip it slow and tight.  -proud American
                \_ I would say that you will notice a difference in 4 weeks and
                   probably feel pretty good about taking your shirt off
                   in six months. Even if you can't lose the fat, your
                   muscle mass ratio will go up, so you will just look
                   much better. One of the great things about weight
                   lifting is that you can see results quickly. Ax knows
                   much more about this, but one of the great things
                   about weight lifting is the fact that is shows results
                   quickly. One of the touch things about weight lifting
                   is that at some point you plateau and start showing very
                   little or no gains. At that point you might want to talk
                   to a personal trainer or something. That usually doesn't
                   happen in your first year though. -ausman