7/31    Can you guys please take the Israel/Hezbollah/whatever screaming match
        to Sproul Plaza?  It was entertaining, but you're really not
        convincing each other.  -John
        \_ you are saying NOW because for the first time you actually feel
           something IDF has done which is not right?
           \_ _Huh_?  No, I'm saying the discussion is old, pointless, and
              a waste of precious, intellectual MOTD space.  -John
                \_ Intellectual MOTD space? When did we get that installed?
                   \_ And how do I get my quota increased? -gm
        \_ Agreed. I'm all for trading actual information, but this has
           devolved into less signal than noise. --erikred
           \_ The "actual information" is the subject of debate.
              \_ Let me see if I can sum this up: Hezbollah's launching
                 rockets into Israel and abducted two Israeli soldiers;
                 Israel is bombing southern Lebanon and Beirut and has blown
                 up the airport and the road out of Lebanon into Syria as
                 well as some UN observers. Israel is claiming that it has
                 the right to defend itself, which no reasonable human beings
                 are debating, although everyone who is not Israel is
                                                \_ Correct, but without taking
                        a close look at who "everyone" is" you miss an
                        important point: "everyone" would be perfectly happy
                        if Israel was wiped out, so just how valid is the
                        opinion of "everyone"?  Also, I suspect "everyone"
                        would have a very different view if it was "everyone's"
                        country under attack from Hezbollah instead of Israel.
                        In fact, "everyone" deals quite harshly with their own
                        local terrorist groups but has a remarkable different
                        take on Israel's problems.  See how hard it is to
                        provide a list of facts?  The facts without context are
                        useless and easily manipulated.  Without context and a
                        full array of facts the events quickly disolve into
                        propaganda and PR and moral equivalency.
                        \_ "everyone" is a classic weasel word.  You took
                           way more space than was necessary to say that.
                           Check out the wikipedia (I know, I know) definition:
                           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
                           \_ I was also pointing out the hypocritical nature
                              of those in the "everyone" category.  Their
                              opinions are thus invalid in a discussion based
                              on morals and ethics.  If you want to discuss
                              things in terms of pure might-makes-right then
                              yes, "everyone" can punish Israel quite harshly
                              economically and in other ways for engaging in
                              more self-defense than "they" deem proper for a
                              Jewish state.
                 suggesting that the response has been somewhat over-
                 enthusiastic. Everyone apart from Israel is calling for a
                 cease-fire. Israel has declared a moratorium on the bombing
                 except on sites where missiles are about to be launched.
                 The two hostages have not yet been returned. This appears to
                 be the actual information. The part about whose fault this
                 all is and who's more evil than who seems to be the part
                 that's being shouted about. Did I miss anything? --erikred
                 \_ yes.  you need to be a bit more objective by not
                    leave out important facts, such as the number of Israelli
                    civilian / military personnel killed, and the number of
                    Lebanonese civilian / Hezbollah killed.  You are implying
                    the casualties are on both sides, but in reality it's more
                    lop-sided.  Also, you may also want to includes all the
                    IFRC convoys and fleeing trucks being bombed as well.
                    \_ No, I think you need to be more objective -- the things
                       you're suggesting are clearly subject to dispute and
                       therefore not suitable as 'facts' at this time.  Nice
                       thread hijack attempt, though.
                       \_ The huge number of Lebanonese civilians are killed
                          by IDF, that is fact (huge compare with number of
                          Israeli citizens died of Hezbollah attack).  IFRC
                          convoys are being bombed by IDF, fleeing trucks are
                          being bombed by IDF.  These are all facts.  Note
                          that I didn't mention anything about why IDF did
                          so.  *THAT* is a subjective stuff.  You are
                          being Jewish first, fact seconds, and trying to
                          leave out any facts that you deemed unfavorable to
                          Israeli cause.
                 \_ stop confusing me facts!!
                 \_ More actual information: Hezbollah's rockets are killing
                    civilians in Israel.  Israel's bombs are killing civilians
                    in Lebanon.  The part about whether the civilians on this
                    side or that side are actually "innocent" civilians are
                    probably being shouted about also.
                    \_ again, this implies equal number of civilians are killed
                       on both side.  While actual number may be in disbute,
                        it's only fair to point out the lopside-ness of the
                        casualties.
        \_ How is it any different than any other heated topic on the motd?
           Let's not talk about politics, climate change, or anything else
           that might get someone's knickers in a bunch.  No one is forcing
           anyone here to read anything.
           \_ It's not -- but there's nothing wrong with a reasonably polite
              request to change the subject since it's clear that neither
              side is going to listen to the other.
              \_ What are the odds anyone is going to stop discussing the
                 topic because the OP is no longer entertained by it?  If the
                 OP no longer cares to follow the threads related to an on-
                 going world event, the OP is welcome to skip them.  I skip
                 plenty of threads of no interest to me without asking the
                 participants to stop.  Tipping etiquette was of no interest
                 to me at all and went on for several screens over several
                 days.  No one asked them to stop, nor deleted the thread
                 until it was dead.
                 \_ Tipping Etiquette....right.  Whatever you say.
                    \_ It went on for almost a week and spanned several
                       screens and was boring as dry paint but I didn't
                       whine about it.  You couldn't have missed it.  Maybe
                       you found it fun and exciting and intellectually
                       stimulating?
                 \_ It was a long discussion, as opposed to a series of
                    constantly rehashed points that don't serve to
                    convince anyone of anything, least of all the
                    participants.  -John
                    \_ No, it was pretty much the same rehashed tipping
                       discussion as the previous times with at least one
                       of the same participants, no change in attitude, no
                       new useful information and no one convincing anyone
                       of anything.  Easily summarised as, "The elitist
                       entertain-me crowd vs. the proletariat".  Class
                       warfare: yawn.
                       \_ Actually, you're wrong, but since you're being
                          an obtuse idiot, I won't bother your tiny brain
                          with the details.  -John
        \_ shrug. I just press space bar and skip it if it's not interesting.