Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 43745
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2025/05/28 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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2006/7/20-23 [Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:43745 Activity:nil
7/20    http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20060719/ts_csm/acoldshoulder
        "In 2002, illegal immigrants living in the US used $2,700 worth of
        government services per person more than they paid in taxes, according
        to the Center for Immigration Studies, an organization that advocates
        curtailing immigration levels."
        \_ Wow. An anti-immigration lobbying group provided numbers claiming
           that illegal immigrants are a drain on the economy. Breaking
           fucking news.
           \_ Just looking at gov't services is myopic.  Illegal immigrants
              probably provide more than $2.7k worth of labor, reducing prices,
              and benefitting those who paid taxes.
              \_ Do they provide the more than $2.7k worth of labor for free?
                 No, they get paid.
                 \_ Sorry, I meant 'labor below market rates'.
                    \_ Which drags down pay scales for citizens, which further
                       erodes what citizens pay in taxes, increases the amount
                       of government services citizens require, etc, all so
                       some people can get a head of lettuce for 10 cents less.
                       Although if you own a mega agribusiness you're scoring
                       big time off this scam, more power to you.  Everyone
                       else is getting hurt, at least indirectly.
                       \_ unless you consume produce
                          \_ Depends on what % of your budget you spend
                             on produce.
                        \_ This is *still* a myopic view on your part.
                           The rest of the population benefits from the
                           reduced prices on everything that immigrant
                           labor goes into.  Can you quantify it and
                           balance it against the costs you correctly
                           mention?  You're giving only one side of the
                           story.  Yes, the gov't gets less taxes, but
                           is "taxes paid to gov't" the sole benchmark of
                           a successful economy?  Anyway, without said
                           quantification your assertions are just
                                               ^[i.e., illegals are bad]
                           assertions.  I'll find you credible when
                           you have numbers.  And if you *do* back your
                           assertions with a non-myopic balanced
                           analysis of real costs and benefits, and
                           immigration is a downside, you'll have my
                           vote.  Seriously, I admit you might be right,
                           it's just I don't think you've made your case.
                           \_ So your line is basically, "I like cheap stuff
                              so it is up to you to justify enforcing
                              immigration law".  The burden of proof is on
                              those who flagrantly violate the law or advocate
                              such violation that the illegal population is
                              an over all plus for the country.  You not only
                              have to demonstrate that illegals are good for
                              the country economically but that the benefit
                              far outweighs the all the other negatives.  You
                              have an additional burden:  illegal workers who
                              are mostly in farming and construction are
                              getting lower pay than citizens *because* they
                              are illegal and thus are being abused.  How can
                              you ethically and morally justify paying
                              unjustifiably low wages for such hard work when
                              the basis of that low wage is the illegal status
                              of the worker which puts them at the tender
                              mercy of their employers?  If you own stock in
                              any of the mega agribusinesses, more power to
                              you for the money you make on others this way.
                              \_ Actually, the burden of proof is on
                                 bigoted isolationists who defend current
                                 barriers to legal immigration.  Why not
                                 make those workers legal and have them
                                 pay taxes?  And incidentally, the entire
                                 argument is a red herring, since poor
                                 people as a group will always pay less in
                                 taxes than they take in in services.  -tom
                              \_ No, I'm not making the claim that immigrants
                                 are good.  Did you not get the part where
                                 I said I'd listen to you if you were
                                 convincing?  I'm merely pointing out
                                 that immigrants COULD be good, that your
                                 argument that they are bad ignores or
                                 doesn't weigh possible benefits of
                                 illegal immigration compared to the costs.
                                 I'm not standing up for immigrants:
                                 I'm listening to you and finding you
                                 unconvincing because you don't really
                                 address counterarguments.  Get it?
                                 Similarly, I'd jump on a pro-immigrant
                                 guy who didn't bother mentioning
                                 consumption of public resources.  Right now,
                                 I am neutral:  I simply don't know.
                                 All I am saying is that you are not
                                 convincing.  You've said nothing
                                 that makes me feel compelled to get
                                 off the fence on your side.
                                 \_ Let's not confuse immigrants who got in
                                    line and followed the law and came here
                                    legally with illegal immigrants who did
                                    not.  I'm quite pro-immigrant.  Going on
                                    from there: the basis of my argument is
                                    that it doesn't matter if they are good
                                    for the country economically (which many
                                    studies dispute and a visit to your local
                                    emergency ward would empirically confirm)
                                    but the greater issue I raised of 'they
                                    are here *illegally*'.  If you want free
                                    and open immigration, that's fine, let's
                                    make that the official on-the-books law
                                    instead of this nonsense where we have
                                    laws we flat out ignore and intentionally
                                    fail to enforce as a matter of official
                                    policy.  Then at least everyone would be
                                    legal and the entire issue would settle
                                    itself in a libertarian style truly-free
                                    economic free-for-all.  I think that would
                                    be a horror but at least the artificially
                                    low wages and employer control over their
                                    helpless workers would end.  If you're not
                                    up for libertarian style border enforcement
                                    then what is wrong with actually enforcing
                                    our laws?  I'm unwilling (for example) to
                                    see hospitals going out of business,
                                    reducing service quality while passing
                                    increased costs on to evreyone to provide
                                    basic medical care out of emergency rooms
                                    because the agribusinesses have uninsurable
                                    off-books workers.  Or schools getting
                                    crushed with an overload of students.  Or
                                    increased crime from multi-national gangs.
                                    Or continuing to let giant agribusinesses
                                    get away with maintaining an underclass of
                                    people to boost their bottom line.  And no,
                                    I don't seriously believe produce prices
                                    are lower because of it unless you can
                                    convince me these companies are run by
                                    philanthropists who are trying oh so hard
                                    to give us the best products at the lowest
                                    prices (cough, wheeze, gasp).  The only
                                    people benefitting from this are the rich,
                                    the Mexican government, and the very rich.
                                    \_ Um, the original argument started with
                                       illegal immigrants costing $2700 in
                                       gov't services.  There was no balanced
                                       view of the economic benefit of their
                                       labor, so the $2700 number is a number
                                       that is useless.  And if the economic
                                       benefit really is just to the rich,
                                       then you're right, that benefit should
                                       be discounted.
                                       \- I dont like saying complex public
                                          issues are "simple" but it seems
                                          to me not having serious sanctions
                                          against employers of illegal aliens
                                          [as well as the will and resources
                                          to enforce them] make this largely
                                          shadow boxing ... just like anti-
                                          aff action people who are ok with
                                          major departures from "metritorcratic
                                          admissions" such as legacies are
                                          totally disingenuous ... i'm not
                                          saying college admissions can be
                                          done like the medical residency
                                          match, but it could be a lot cleaner,
                                          if there was a serious desire to be
                                          so [i.e. it was goal directed rather
                                          than politics directed]. this idea
                                          of creating a second class labor
                                          pool shows it is business interests
                                          driving the elite side of the
                                          republican view [BUSHCO] regardless
                                          of the rest of the rhetoric. the
                                          sttements that these insidious
                                          illegal are too clever for tyson
                                          foods are ridiculous ... if anything
                                          those are the easiest employers to
                                          go after. the harder ones to do
                                          go after. the harder ones to go
                                          after are probaby the illegal baby-
                                          care workers of yuppie couples,
                                          and say irish programmers over
                                          staying their visas ... arguably not
                                          a security or economic problem for
                                          the US, but whether this is a prob
                                          depends on your view of equity and
                                          enforcement.
2025/05/28 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/28    

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Cache (4490 bytes)
news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20060719/ts_csm/acoldshoulder
Christian Science Monitor Backlash emerges against Latino culture By Patrik Jonsson, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor Wed Jul 19, 4:00 AM ET NORCROSS, GA. Click Here Hispanic purveyors of the workingman's lunch represent an immigration policy many Americans feel has gone haywire. In many interior states where the Hispanic immigration had been minimal until recently, residents are encountering more new faces speaking an incomprehensible language and infiltrating street corners with their cilantro-spiced fare. In resisting the sudden and growing influence of Latino culture, some cities and towns across America are requiring the use of English and restricting culinary mores and even the Hispanic tradition of sitting on the front porch. is costing them, they watched the May 1 demonstrations, and they are mad," says Richard Lamm, a former Colorado governor, who codirects the Institute for Public Policy Studies in Denver. "They're reaching for whatever tool is available, and some of those tools are harsh and not very sophisticated." More Hispanics - legal and illegal - live in Gwinnett County than anywhere else in Georgia. The Hispanic population in the county has swelled to more than 105,000, expanding from 10 to 15 percent of the total since 2000, according to the US Census. The influx of immigrants in states outside the Big Six immigration states - California, New York, Illinois, New Jersey, Texas, and Florida - has changed the landscape so dramatically, so quickly, that the voting constituency has hardly been able to keep up, experts say. In 2002, illegal immigrants living in the US used $2,700 worth of government services per person more than they paid in taxes, according to the Center for Immigration Studies, an organization that advocates curtailing immigration levels. Powerless to seal or control the US borders themselves, locals are taking their own action. Last month, the Gwinnett County Board of Commissioners became one of the first in the country to ban mobile taco stands, which officials said were cluttering street corners. One Gwinnett politician described the proliferation of rolling taco stands as "gypsy-fication." "I don't think you'd see this generalized fear if they were selling grits," says William Frey, a demographer at the Brookings Institution in Washington. Others have taken even more flagrant actions toward Hispanic immigrants. A Philadelphia sub shop owner, Joseph Vento, has a sign up that reads: "This is America. In Ohio, Butler County Sheriff Richard Jones has put up a yellow sign saying "Illegal Aliens Here," with an arrow pointing to the county jail. Since 2000, the percentage of Latinos in Hazleton has jumped from 5 percent to nearly 30 percent. o illegal immigrants and those who would hire or abet them in any way ... You are no longer welcome," Mayor Lou Baretta wrote in a letter posted on the city's website. While anti-immigrant hate groups increased 33 percent in the past five years, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, overall acceptance of immigration is at a five-year high, according to a recent Gallup Poll. aren't prepared for a community they didn't expect to have." To Mexicans, "tacos are life," says Juan Martinez, a construction worker in Norcross. Mr Martinez, a green-card holder from central Mexico, prefers to make his own tacos, but says that mobile taco stands serve many Hispanic workers stuck at construction sites. The lack of protest about the ban in Gwinnett County doesn't surprise him. "This is not our country, we don't have the power," Martinez says. Still, these restrictions come about because of inaccurate stereotypes that all Hispanics are undocumented or poor, says Dan Tichenor, an immigration expert at the Eagleton Institute of Politics in New Brunswick, NJ "Getting nostalgic about our own immigrant past, but dreading the latest newcomers, is something that has been around since Ben Franklin," he says. The local ordinances are a forerunner to developing a national policy for immigration reform, says Mr Frey. "Part of the price we have to pay before we come up with reasonable national solutions is this kind of interim action where local officials try to grandstand for small political gains," he says. But such ordinances are little more than "feel-good" efforts by frustrated Americans, says Robert Nilles, a Hazleton city councilor. "It's a little funny in a way, because you're trying to control something you have no control over," he says.