7/17    I heard a good summary of the Middle East problem over the weekend:
        If the Arabs didn't have guns, there wouldn't be a war.
        If the Israelis didn't have guns, there wouldn't be an Israel.
        \_ True.  But if the Arabs didn't have guns and the Israelis did, there
           would be a very big Israel.
           \_ I don't think so. Israel doesn't really have any imperialistic
              goals. Israelis are happy with the historic boundaries of
              their country. They only occupy more because they have to.
              \_ that is one of the funniest thing I've ever heard for a long
                 long time.  First of all, Israli justify their existence
                 based upon God's promise.  And if you impose what God have
                 promised versus what Israel occupies today, you might agree
                 with me that current "Israel" is about 1/4 of what God
                 promised them.
                 \_ Let's talk about Taiwan, shall we?  Or Tibet?
                 \_ Funny, most Israelis I know think the whole "greater
                    Israel" thing is a crock and "justify their existence" on
                    not wanting to live somewhere where their families are
                    wiped out, either then or now.  I also don't see many
                    Israelis (beyond the crackpots) calling for the
                    annihilation of their neighboring states for no reason,
                    but then again I guess that doesn't matter to you.  -John
                 \_ Really?  There's a map somewhere?  Does God provide GPS
                    coordinates defining the boundaries?
                    \_ He speaks directly to Pat Robertson.  Sharon got the
                       coordinates wrong, so God laid the smackdown on him.
                    \_ Yes, of course God provides the God Positioning System
                       to the Chosen People.
              \_ What are the historic boundaries of Isreal again? Show me
              \_ What are the historic boundaries of Israel again? Show me
                 a map please. And when in history do you want to go? 1950?
                 1800? 1000? 1000BC? It has hardly been static.
                 \_ historical border is irrelevant. What is relevant is
                    the current border, which is as good as how much your
                    country can afford.
                 \_ Here's a better question:
                    What are the boundaries of Israel that the Arabs
                    would tolerate?
                    \_ If you mean the current residents of Gaza, the West
                       Bank, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and several others: none.
                       There is no amount of land that is ok for Israel to
                       have.  "Push them into the sea" isn't hyperbole.
                       \_ No, most Palestinians have signed off on the
                          47 borders of Israel. Or at least they did back
                          when Arafat was still alive. Maybe he wasn't the
                          Devil you made him out to be, eh?
                          \_ The 1947 borders?  You mean the ones that were
                             good only if the Arabs would agree to live
                             peacefully with Israel but are suicidal if there's
                             a constant state of war?  Oh yeah, those are great
                             borders... if you're looking to push Israel into
                             the sea.  Afarat was a killer and a thug and the
                             worst thing possible for his people.
                             \_ Really? Are the Palestinians now better off
                                without his leadership? Heck, for that matter,
                                is Israel?
                    \_ "The Arabs"? I dunno, didn't Egypt agree to the
                       67 boundaries? Do you mean all 200M of them? I imagine
                       67 boundaries? Do you mean all 200M Arabs? I imagine
                       it would be hard to get 200M people to agree on anything.
                       Okay, I just found the treaty between Israel and
                       Egypt on the web (isn't this informaion superhiway
                       thingy grand?). It only outlines the Isreal/Egypt
                       thingy grand?). It only outlines the Israel/Egypt
                       border, not the whole thing. I bet "The Arabs" would
                       live with Isreal in its 56 borders, though that is
                       live with Israel in its 56 borders, though that is
                       certainly open to debate. Those borders are what
                       Abbas and his crew have asked for.
                       Abbas and his crew have asked for. Also, what makes
                       your question "better" than mine? What is the
                       "historic" boundary of Isreal???
                       "historic" boundary of Israel???
                       \_ Israel occupies its current borders out of
                          necessity, not out of some imperialist desire.
                          As someone else said, they could occupy more
                          land if they wanted to. I do not think that the
                          Arabs (meaning the former Arab League,
                          especially Syria) tolerate the existence of Israel
                          at all. If Israel went back to the old borders
                          I predict that it would ultimately be attacked,
                          not that peace would then reign.
           \_ Israel has won how many wars against all of their state sized
              neighbors?  They could be much bigger if they wanted.
        \_ The guy who wrote this must be a Jew.
           \_ Wow, trolled lately?