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| 12/25 |
| 2006/7/5-7 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:43571 Activity:nil |
7/5 Soooo, Israel invaded the Gaza strip days ago and not a word on
the motd. It feels like the pink elephant in the room. No one
cares? Shall we ignore this like we do the Darfur attrocities that
continue to this day?
\_ What do you want them to do? Negotiate for the hostage?
\_ if anything, first act of war was unleashed by Israel, impose
unjustified economic sanctions upon a DEMOCRATICALLY elected
government.
\_ they demand release of those under 18 of age and women. I
don't know about you, but the demand sounds relatively reasonable
to me.
\_ so releasing a set of people known to carry suicide bombs
back into the general population sounds reasonable to you?
\_ how do you know ALL the people in Israelli custody are
guilty beyond reasonable doubt?
\_ Hamas attacks Israel, and you think Israel is the problem?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1209965,00.html
\_ And you're ok with Israel cutting off the democratically elected
government before they barely had a chance to get into office?
\_ Hamas are terrorists and thugs, Hitler was democratically
elected, and I invoke Godwin's law and declare this
discussion over before it barely had a chance to
get started. -John
\_ and PLA was not a terrorist? how about PKK? we are
actually giving money away to PKK, you know that, right?
\_ The PLA were as well. As are the PKK. And if we're
giving them money, that's not right. Period. -John
\_ but we do give money to PKK.
\_ Wait, are you trumping a Middle East discussion with a
Nazi abortion? Call Jerry Springer! --erikred
\_ I think this is an example of Quirk's Exception. -ausman
\_ Have you ever seen the MSU and IAC yelling at each
other (when I was at Cal, they were both at Sather
Gate.) No, I wouldn't make an exception. -John
\_ See kids? Don't drink and discuss Arab-Israeli politics.
\_ Hamas uses suicide bombers against civilians. Having an official
policy of killing civilians for maximum civilian casualties speaks
for itself.
\_ Indeed. Israel's had fucking tanks in Gaza for a few days now
and there's a huge funeral because they've killed ONE guy who
was about to fire a rocket at them.
\_ I'm not trying to argue, and I have absolutely no respect
for Hamas, but Israel also killed a few people hanging
out on the beach a few weeks ago. I think both sides
have done things to piss off and alienate the other side.
\_ how about bombing president's office? bombing power plant
that knock 700,000 people out of power? The truth is,
Israel want to destroy infrastructure of a proper nation
so Palestinian can never form an effective state. This
whole thing is not about one soldier being kidnapped.
\_ You think they're capable of having an effective state?
Hamas and Fatah were already in a civil war which had
no Israeli involvement.
\_ you don't call illegal economic blocade an
"involvement?"
\_ Israelis did not blow up anyone a beach a few weeks ago.
Please stop repeating Hamas propoganda.
\_ yeah, but you just don't fight back against oppression by
blowing people up in crowded restaurants.
\_ Palestinians don't have a choice. if they fight like
an regular army, they will be crushed. FURTHER,
just remember, Israel was FOUNDED by terrorist bombing.
Remember those Zionist bombing against British? of
course not.
\_ The British were foreign occupiers. Bombing foreign
occupiers is ok. Isn't it?
\_ Israel at the time wasn't a nation. It was called
"British mandated PALESTINE."
\_ Yeah, agreed. The problem, though, is that the
Palestinians think Israel does things like that on
purpose and then claims it was an accident.
\_ dude, I am not an Arab and I don't believe Israel
neither. Israelli has a track record of shelling
UN refugee camp, destory target regardless civilian
casualties, and obey UN charter and international law
only for their benefit.
\_ A track record? Please tell us when they shelled
a refugee camp? Tell us what they should do when
\_ April 18, 1999. Do i have to do all the
google for you
the target hides among a willing population that
shields people lobbing rockets over the border?
\_ border? what border? Is there a border between
"Israel" and "State of Palestine?"
Tell us what would happen to Israel if they
pulled back to their pre-67 borders. Or maybe
you'd prefer the pre-47 borders?
\_ I think they say that, but they don't really believe
it.
\_ Does it matter if they believe it? They use
it as a justification for their actions. Say
anything often enough and you, and a lot of
other people, will believe it.
\_ Who is concerned with Hamas' justifications
for anything?
\_ I don't think any of us are, I say f***
Hamas. But they have propaganda power
over other Palestinians.
\_ I just say we should of give Hamas a
chance before economic sanction was imposed.
A political entity tend to say one thing
to get the power, and the behavior changes
as ruling and responsibility lays upon their
shoulder. Unfortunately, US policy was
to destroy any chance 2-state solution, and
destroy the democratically elected
government.
This make sense in the same way that we
invaded Iraq.
\_ Don't know much about Hamas, huh?
\_ consider all your news are from
US and Israeli sources, I would say
i know more about Hamas than you do.
\_ Except your assumption is
wrong.
\_ I'm not sure anything in Palestine
counts as "democratically elected."
It's more like feudalism with elections.
\_ good try. UN Observer and Jimmy
Carter was there. The election was
fair. You need to understand that
democracy is all about organization
and mobilization of people to vote.
Hamas, Islamtic Brotherhood in Egypt
are much better organized than the
secular counter part. So, if we
decided that democracy is the best way
to go (which i personally does not),
then, you need to bite the bullet and
accept the result.
\_ That's in pretty big dispute. The shrapnel type was
different than that fired, the time was different, and
Palestinians tried to hide the evidence. It is not
clear that Israel was responsible for that explosion.
\_ Seems quite clear they weren't responsible. Sounds
more like a "work accident".
\_ Just curious, if terrorist hide among innocent
civilians and fire rockets, who's responisible for the
civilian casualties resulting from the response? I
would say those who endangered the civilians in the
first place.
\_ Let's avoid the word "terrorist." Terrorism is
a technique to wage warfare, nothing more. These guys
in Gaza / West Bank are resistant fighters. The way
they fight make avoiding civilian casulty difficult.
However, you need to remember, the reason why we hate
them is because they doesn't seems to mind killing
"innocent" civilians. However, if anything, Israeli's
track record is as bad as those of Hamas and PLA in
terms of killing civilians, etc. Just that we tend
to know every bombing in Israel, but we normally don't
see those civilians being killed by Israeli army, by
missile, by proxmity shell, by refuse them go to
hospital on the other side of check point.
\_ Visit a Sbarro's and tell yourself there was one just like it
that was blown up just because. I can't believe there are people
who think that good will win! |
| 12/25 |
|
| www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1209965,00.html That reveals the Palestinians' true agenda By CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER Israel Invades Gaza. which, in turn, was in response to the indiscriminate shelling of Israeli towns by rockets launched from Gaza. Of all the conflicts in the world, the one that seems the most tediously and hopelessly endless is the Arab-Israeli dispute, which has been going on in much the same way, it seems, for 60 years. Just about every story you'll see will characterize Israel's invasion of Gaza as a continuation of the cycle of violence. That is why, as tempting as that figure of speech is to use, in this case it is false. It is as false as calling American attacks on Taliban remnants in Afghanistan part of a cycle of violence between the US and al-Qaeda or, as Osama bin Laden would have it, between Islam and the Crusaders going back to 1099. Every party has its grievances--even Hitler had his list when he invaded Poland in 1939--but every conflict has its origin. What is so remarkable about the current wave of violence in Gaza is that the event at the origin of the "cycle" is not at all historical, but very contemporary. Every Jew, every soldier, every military installation, every remnant of Israeli occupation was uprooted and taken away. What have they done with Gaza, the first Palestinian territory in history to be independent, something neither the Ottomans nor the British nor the Egyptians nor the Jordanians, all of whom ruled Palestinians before the Israelis, ever permitted? On the very day of Israel's final pullout, the Palestinians began firing rockets out of Gaza into Israeli towns on the other side of the border. And remember: those are attacks not on settlers but on civilians in Israel proper, the pre-1967 Israel that the international community recognizes as legitimately part of sovereign Israel, a member state of the UN A thousand rockets have fallen since. Before the withdrawal, attacks across the border could have been rationalized with the usual Palestinian mantra of occupation, settlements and so on. The logic for those continued attacks is to be found in the so-called phase plan adopted in 1974 by the Palestine National Council in Cairo. Realizing that they would never be able to destroy Israel in one fell swoop, the Palestinians adopted a graduated plan to wipe out Israel. First, accept any territory given to them in any part of historic Palestine. Then, use that sanctuary to wage war until Israel is destroyed. So in 2005 the Palestinians are given Gaza, free of any Jews. Do they begin building the state they say they want, constructing schools and roads and hospitals? They launch rockets at civilians and dig a 300-yard tunnel under the border to attack Israeli soldiers and bring back a hostage. And this time the terrorism is carried out not by some shadowy group that the Palestinian leader can disavow, however disingenuously. This is Hamas in action--the group that was recently elected to lead the Palestinians. At least there is now truth in advertising: a Palestinian government openly committed to terrorism and to the destruction of a member state of the UN openly uses terrorism to carry on its war. The action began 59 years ago when the UN voted to solve the Palestine conundrum then ruled by Britain by creating a Jewish state and a Palestinian state side by side. the Palestinians rejected it and joined five outside Arab countries in a war to destroy the Jewish state and take all the territory for themselves. That remains, in the Palestinian view, Israel's original sin, the foundational crime for the cycle: Israel's survival. That's the reason for the rockets, for the tunneling, for the kidnapping--and for Israel's current response. If that history is too ancient, consider the history of the past 12 months. Because this war is not about occupation, but about Israel's very existence. The so-called cycle will continue until the arrow is abandoned and the Palestinians accept a compromise--or until the arrow finds its mark and Israel dies. |