6/8     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13202682
        Indigenous Hawaiian bill falls short in Senate. You whities may
        have won this time, but we will keep trying. Time is on our side.
        \_ Just curious, are there examples in history where a dominant
           race uses military mights to crush all the inferior natives, and
           the natives worship the dominant culture instead of hating them?
           For some reason, it seems that the conquered people seem to
           have a lot of resentments despite all the material goods and
           better infrastructural improvements brought by the conquerers.
           \_ Worship?  Not per se but the Roman Empire was built by
              "Romanising" the natives they conquered.  After a few
              generations, the original culture, traditions, etc, was often
              lost and certainly secondary to their new Roman culture.  I can't
              recall his name this second but one of the "barbarian" generals
              who attacked the Romans was really just pissed off that he wasn't
              allowed to climb any higher in the Roman army because he wasn't
              considered native Roman even though that's all he ever knew.
              Rome capitulated and forked over a lot more gold and land than if
              they'd just promoted him in the army.
              \_ Alexander the Great did this, too. Heck, even the
                 Russian peasants were cheering the Nazis until the SS
                 showed up.
              \- I am guessing you are talking about Arminius of the Cherusci,
                 responsible for the famous Roman defeat in the Teutoburger
                 Wald, also known as the "Clades Variana". On your larger
                 point, I dont think you really know what you are talking
                 about -- it is pretty hard to generalize about the early
                 Roman conquests [unification of Italy], Rome and the Hellenic
                 World and forward several centuries to the imperial policy
                 of the later Roman Empire. A famous line from Horace goes
                 "Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit" [Captive Greece took
                 captive her capturer] which gives a hint about the
                 complicated "feedback loop" between Rome and one of her
                 subjugated powers. --publius
                 \_ I was speaking about later Roman conquests of Gaul and the
                    surrounding regions as far as Romanisation goes.  The
                    reason Greek culture overwhelemed Roman is that the Romans
                    didn't have much of one to speak of at the time.  As an
                    early state with limited culture first making their way
                    into the world, they didn't have that much to spread to
                    their subjects so I'd have to be talking about the later
                    imperial era.
                    \_ How did "Greek culture overwhelm Roman"
                       You may want to read Plutarch on Cato, at
                       first cut. It's hard to know what you mean
                       since the events you are talking about can
                       refer to anywhere from the 3rd cent BC to
                       say the 2nd cent AD. [like when you say "Roman
                       Empire" do you mean the Roman Empire or the
                       empire of the Roman Republic.
                       \_ It means that the Romans stole much of their
                          culture from the Greeks, even going so far as to
                          be educated by them.
                          \_ i dont know what you actually know about the
                             relationship between rome and the hellenic and
                             hellenistic worlds, but based on your phrasings,
                             i dont think you give rome their due. the
                             relationship between greece and rome is one of
                             the BIG QUESTIONS in roman scholarship in part
                             because it is so complicated. one of the most
                             influential scholars in this area is a recently
                             retired ucb history prof.
                         [http://ls.berkeley.edu/dept/classics/facCVs/esg.html]
                             from the preface to one of his books:
                             "rome yielded to the allure of of greek culture,
                             while retaining a provound sense of closeness to
                             while retaining a profound sense of closeness to
                             her roots ... confrontation with hellenism
                             stimulated roman intellectuals to formulate the
                             principles they associated with their past ...
                             prompted the drive to deliniate the special
                             quality of rome's own values ... romans rec'd high
                             praise for their adaptability, their openness
                             and responsiveness to foreign influence ... [but]
                             assiminlation and resistance went hand in hand.
                             [3rd, 2nd cent bc ...] the romans were by no
                             means boorish rustics, awestruck and intimiated
                             by hellenism, gripped by an inferiority complex...
                             the success of gk culture in rome came in part
                             because it could server certain public purposes.
                             because it could serve certain public purposes.
                             they engaged in adaptation, modification, man-
                             ipulation." in particular see essay "philosophy,
                             rhetoric, and roman axieties."
                             rhetoric, and roman anxieties."
                             \_ This guy just sounds like an apologist:
                                "the success of gk culture in rome came in
                                part because it could serve certain public
                                purposes." Yeah, very small part.
                                \_ gee, "this guy" is a former president of
                                   American Philological Assn, and you are
                                   make sweeping meaningless generalizations
                                   (like not distinguishing between Romanization
                                   in Egypt, Greece, Judea vs. Western Europe.
                                   where you talk about "i'd have to be talking
                                   about the later imperial era" simply doesnt
                                   make any sense ... what year do yoou mean?)
                                   make any sense ... what year do you mean?)
                                   and cant remember the details of the one
                                   specific example you attempt to give.
                                   So forgive me for not taking your comments
                                   seriously. Now how about you tell us what
                                   you think caused the "fall of the roman
                                   empire" and tell us what you think about
                                   R. Syme's "The Roman Revolution".
                                   about the later imperial era" ... what
                                   year do you mean?) and cant remember the
                                   details of the one specific example you
                                   attempt to give. So forgive me for not
                                   taking your comments seriously. Now how
                                   about you tell us what you think caused
                                   the "fall of the roman empire" and tell
                                   us what you think about R. Syme's "The
                                   Roman Revolution".
        \_ why USA is critizing China on Tibet again?
           \_ A better question is when does conquered land regain
              sovereignty? Or does it? Got those crazy MENCha peeps
              trying to get back the Western US (including one Mayor
              of L.A.) Why can't they play nice like the people in
              the Kurile Islands?
              \_ Why don't we just give them the LA mayor if they really
                 want him so badly?  -John
                 \_ Or send him off to be Tibet's Mayor.  They can follow him
                    there.  It'll be utopia.  We'll all want in.
           \_ Because we're trying to spare them the turmoil and angst that
              we have suffered since annexing Hawaii. Don't make the same
              mistakes we have, PRC! You don't want an Autonomous Region of
              hop heads and meth fiends!