6/7 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060607/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush
Bush says you must "learn values and history and language of
America". I say to Bush, maybe you should learn something about
world history, public speech, diplomacy, and anger management
before telling other people what to do.
\_ Does anyone else find it disturbing that the Office of Citizenship
is being established under the Department of Homeland Security?
\_ Nein, it makes perfekt sense to me.
\_ Bush should, yes, maybe. What's wrong about forcing immigrants
and candidates for citizenship to adopt the basic values of their
host countries? Most European states have long adopted a really
fuzzy and tolerant attitude towards immigrants' cultures, and it's
a fucking catastrophe, particularly with Eastern European, African
and many muslim arrivals--the attitude towards "oh we must
understand and acknowledge them" is changing, fast, in a lot of
places. You're talking about two different things. -John
\_ Why must this be a case of "understand and acknowledge" vs.
"expect them to conform to the laws and civics of our country"?
When did the two become incompatible?
\_ OK, maybe my post was poorly worded--most European countries
(except maybe for the UK and France) have less of a melting
pot tradition than the US, even if the extent of immigrants'
readiness to mix in the US is often exagerrated. There's
always been a lot of insecurity of how to deal with new
immigrants, with the result that many governments have bent
over backwards to try and accommodate and tolerate the quirks
of immigrants from countries with social traditions
diametrically opposed to what many consider the enlightened
Western ideal. This has resulted in a marked unwillingness on
the part of many immigrants to "conform to the laws and
civics", as you astutely put it--forced marriages, ethnic
clashes and honor killings are some of the examples of results
of this kid-glove approach. -John
\_ Right on. Where my hackles get raised is when "conform to
the laws and civics" is interpreted to mean "learn English
and become Christian or get out."
\_ Maybe not become Christian, but they should learn
English. It is the official language. It's not too
much to ask. In reality, I suspect that the vast
majority of immigrants *do* learn at least some
English. What pisses me off is when I go somewhere
and the signs are not in English. If you want
Chinese/Korean/Armenian/Spanish signs then fine,
but make sure to have English ones, too.
\_ Are you stupid or just stupid?
\_ Actually, it's not the official language -- that's
kind of the center of the debate.
\_ Oh come on. English is the official language.
It's what our effing Constitution was written
in. We don't need some proclamation for it
to be clear what the official language is.
\_ Words mean something, young padawan.
\_ Right, which is why all the words on
highway signs are in English, for
instance. Because there's no official
language.
\_ I think you're confused about what
'official' means in this context. Yes,
signs are in english -- but that's not
the same as mandating english from
a legal standpoint (official government
documents, etc). Perhaps The One True
PSB can elucidate if he's interested --
but IIRC, India has actually mandated
english as its official language.
\_ What would be the difference if
it was mandated? Everything is in
English already. It would just be
a rubber stamp.
\_ Not strictly true - I *believe*
most official government
documents can be obtained in
other languages in this
country. It would be a pretty
big difference if someone that
couldn't speak english and was
unable to read them had no
participatory recourse. (grain
of salt here -- I'm dredging
this up from my first or second
year studies at Ma Berkeley, so
I could be making this all up).
\_ Not all documents are and
most (all?) government
proceedings are conducted
in English. If English was
not "official" then you might
see official documents printed
in other languages, but not in
English. That will never happen,
because English is unofficially
official already.
\_ Um. You really are just
stupid, aren't you. Do you
know how many translators
are employed by the
government? Do you know
how many state and local
government offices, hospitals,
etc have staffing requirements
to make sure local populations
can be served sufficiently
in their own language. You
don't know what you're
rambling about. Shut the fuck
up.
\_ Will we see a day
when there are *ENGLISH*
translators? No, we
won't. So you STFU.
You need to take a fucking civics class. You and your axe _/
to grind belong somewhere in 19th century New York. To declare
English "official" would mean exactly what you're suggesting below,
which has no bearing on reality. Making English official would
mean there would be no burden on the government to make
accommodations for those who live here, even if born here (read
citizens), who don't speak English. An obstacle like this against
civic participation is anti-democratic. As I say, it is a burden
on government, and as such is heavier where there are a larger
spectrum of languages spoken and/or larger populations of other-
language speakers (read large cities). But it is a burden they
are required to bear. Just because english is most common does
not in any way make it "official". And your complaint about
"Chinese/Korean/Armenian/Spanish signs" is so insanely laughable,
you don't deserve any of my time after this. Fuck you.
\_ There should be no burden on government to make accomodations.
It should be entirely an option. You think it's okay if
a largely Hispanic (for example) school district decides to
teach Spanish as the only language?! I don't think that's
okay at all! What if they are a small community of Maoris?
Can they teach their native language exclusively with
government money? I don't see where that does anyone a
service. Schools should teach English, signs should be in
English, government forms should be in English, and so on.
We are not like Canada where everything is in French and
English both. English is the de facto language *ALREADY*.
What is 'making it official' going to change? Do you really
want your kids learning Te Reo Maori in school instead of
English? If you have lots of Spanish (or Chinese or whatever)
speakers then make that language official *TOO* and teach
them all by mandate in school, but English *must be* an official
language in this country. Period.
\_ My response got deleted, so I will summarize. You think it's
okay for a town of largely Maori immigrants to teach Te Reo Maori
(only) in their school district?! I don't and if I moved
into that town I would sue. English needs to be an official
language. You can argue that their should to be several official
languages (Spanish?) but then *everything* must be mandated to
be in Spanish also, including education, street signs, and
all. You can't pick and choose which languages to translate while
also denying English as the unofficial official language.
English is basically the official language and anything else
is done as a courtesy.
\_ Hmm, I'm not sure I see what
you're getting at, exactly.
My point is if you're an
immigrant with no english
skills, being unable to get
government documents in
english is exclusionary,
and *arguably* counter to
some of the principles of
our country. I'd be glad
chat about this more offline
if you're interested -- motd
is already too bandwidthy,
and I'm basically an
ignorant idiot and would
prefer not to add to the
noise.... -mice
\_ We aren't going to
produce translations for
every language in the
world. However, we
always make sure to
produce an English
version, which is often
the sole version. If
you live here you
pretty much *have* to
learn English as it is.
It's what you/your kids
will be taught in school,
what the signs will be
written in, and so on.
English can be the
official language w/o
isolating immigrants.
We can still produce
translations based on
demand. However, if,
say, Spanish was official
then we would *HAVE* to.
As it is, I claim that
English is already official
because such things are
*already* in English.
\_ *shrug* Like I said -
email me if you want
talk about this more.
-mice |
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