news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/sunday_am/4893130.stm
Printable version Iraqi Anniversary On Sunday 09 April 2006, Andrew Marr interviewed the Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw MP Please note "BBC Sunday AM" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. Jack Straw MP Jack Straw MP ANDREW MARR: Foreign Secretary Jack Straw. They all emanate from the same source which is an article in the New Yorker, a detailed article, and it suggests that plans are indeed underway by the Americans, if necessary, to hit various facilities in Iran JACK STRAW: They also suggest that there's going to be a nuclear strike in Iran. And they have the name Mr Richard Pearl which should carry a health warning for any reporter associated with such reports... and a rather unreliable reporter on what happens in the Administration. The idea of a nuclear strike on Iran is completely nuts. Now, let me just deal with this issue of military action. I made clear the British government's position on this time and time again. The American Administration -Condoleezza Rice, President Bush - use slightly different language. I believe it's not on the agenda and they're very committed indeed to resolving this issue which is a complicated issue, by negotiation, and yes by diplomatic pressure. And what the Iranians have to do is to recognise that they have overplayed their hand at each stage, at each stage they calculated they split the international community, actually at each stage the international community's ended up stronger, and that's illustrated by the fact that China and Russia and the non-aligned movement have joined us in increasing pressure including the latest statement from the Security Council on Iran. ANDREW MARR: And yet, clearly the temperature is rising at the moment, worryingly. Would you agree with George Bush that President Ahmadinejad is comparable to Adolph Hitler? JACK STRAW: I'm not going to comment on what President Bush may or may not have said about President Ahmadinejad. President Ahmadinejad is certainly a very difficult leader to deal with, he obviously believe that Israel "should be wiped off the map of the earth" and that is a profoundly belligerent statement, and also deeply unhelpful, not only for peace and stability in the Middle East, but also for Iran and Iran's future. And it's also caused very great embarrassment, let me say, to the real power in Iran, which is the religious authorities. ANDREW MARR: I suppose one of the reasons that people give credibility to the notion that the United States might attack Iran in the future, is that nothing else seems to be working. ANDREW MARR: I hear what you say about the Russians and the Chinese, but at the same time they are still completely against sanctions. They are against the kind of very, very tough pressure that might conceivably, or not, have some effect. And it doesn't look like there's anything actually the outside world can do to stop the Iranian nuclear programme continuing. JACK STRAW: Well, there are two reasons, let me say, let me put the argument on the table, which is that people are worried that Iran is going to turn into another Iraq, and that's in people's minds so we might as well open up and discuss that. Whereas Condoleezza Rice was saying last week, and President Bush, I've also heard him say, Iran is not Iraq. And, yes, I understand people's frustrations with the diplomatic process because it takes a long time and it's quite a subtle process. It's not true, by the way, that Russia and China have been unhelpful, and let us wait and see what approach Russia and China actually take to the issue of sanctions if we have to get there. They are the last country in the world who want a nuclear armed Iran on their doorstep. They've got very big investments in Iran and that's entirely legitimate and understandable. But, the reason why we're opposed to military action is because it's an infinitely worse option and there's no justification for it. ANDREW MARR: So these stories in the papers are all wrong - and - if it came to pass that the Americans said that they were going to attack Iran, we would unequivocally say we want nothing to do with this? Look, I don't think it's going to happen in that way, first of all. I've said it's inconceivable, now people may say well what if Iran were to attack Israel. obviously if Iran did attack Israel the whole circumstances would change and Israel would have a right under Article 51 of self-defence, or if Iran were to attack other of its neighbours, that's a very different circumstance. Or to threaten them in an imminent way, that's not the situation. I mean, let's be clear at the moment, which is why I said what I've said so clearly. As certain as I can be sitting here that neither would the United States. The evidence is very clear, that for 20 years Iran deceived the nuclear inspectors, that they were developing a fuel cycle on a scale quite disproportionate to the very modest nuclear electricity power programme. And, too, that they failed to satisfy the inspectors over the last three years. There is circumstantial evidence including the fact there are manuals from nuclear weapons from Pakistan about how to make bits of nuclear weapons. Which adds up to high suspicion that Iran is developing a civil nuclear capability which in turn could be used for nuclear weapons. But, let's be clear, there is no smoking gun, there is no cassus belli. We can't be certain about Iran's intentions, and that is therefore not a basis of which anybody would gain authority to go into military action. But a lot of people as you suggest yourself, would hear all of that through the prism of what we said ahead of Iraq. JACK STRAW: Well we said very different things ahead of Iraq. Now, you went with Condoleezza Rice to Baghdad a little while ago. Does that actually help, I mean are you in the situation when it comes to close calls on Iraq or Iran for that matter, of being able to pick up the phone and deal with her in a way that's kind of the cut-through the normal diplomatic chatter? JACK STRAW: Well, I think personal relationships make a huge difference in diplomacy as they do in life, although they are not a substitute for the fact that different countries in this case may have different interests. But, and let's be clear, that there are many areas of policy where we have a difference of view from the United States as we do from members of the European Union. I mean, we did a television interview, I'm afraid it was on the competition. Last Sunday Jonathan Dimbleby, where we perfectly accepted in public that there was a different type of emphasis on Iraq. So far as the United States are concerned, Condoleezza Rice, President Bush said it's not on the agenda but they don't rule out any option in theory, that's their position. President Mubarak is the latest person, I suppose, to suggest that Iraq is actually at a state of civil war, there has been another member of the Iraqi government has said something very similar over the last 24 hours and, and of course we have the former prime minister, Mr Alawi saying the same thing on the programme. Isn't it now obvious, everybody who's on the ground looking around more or less agrees that that's what's happening. The situation is very serious, let us be in no doubt, as in Baghdad last Sunday and Monday and it's the third visit I've made since Christmas. It's very frustrating because the leaders are taking far too long to form this government which we've elected, well the parliament was elected, on December 15th, almost four months ago. What's happening is that Al Zakawi, the Al Qaeda terrorist, other terrorists associated with Al Qaeda, and some of the Ba'athist extremist, are trying to provoke a civil war. So far, despite huge slaughter they have not succeeded above all, because of the restraint exercised within the Shia community by the Ayatollah Sustani and by other leaders, for example, Abdul (leader of Arziz Alhakeim). ANDREW MARR: Day after day, week after week, reports of 50 people, 100 people. I mean it is a level of slaughter which compares to the start of civil wars in history. JACK STRAW: Actually it is a high level of slaughter, so I understand why people are ...
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