4/4     For the folks who keep suggesting that building well-designed cities
        won't work, consider that the rush to suburbanization was artificially
        created by real estate developers and car manufacturers who
        aggressively destroyed public transportation and bribed public
        officials to pass no-mixed-use zoning laws to force out downtown
        businesses. This is not conspiracy theory. See "Home from Nowhere"
        for more details.
        \_ Great.  Name one well-designed city.  I am genuinely curious
           as to what it is you want your cities to be like (don't get me
           wrong, I love living in cities, and I rent, but I feel from your
           posts that you may be seeing things a bit simplistically.)  -John
           \_ New York especially Manhatten, SF, Paris.  Seattle,
              although less so than the others. Boston and Chicago but I
              haven't spent more than a few weeks in those.
              \_ You do understand that there are more jobs in cities than
                 living space for people, right?  It takes a *lot* more space
                 per person for living than for working.  So it is necessary
                 for people to come from elsewhere to fill those jobs since
                 the city lacks living space for everyone.  We call the place
                 where all those workers live "the suburbs".  Now then, I do
                 understand than in Utopiaville, the jobs/living space balance
                 is in perfect harmony becaus our Beloved City Planners were
                 able to magically predict population growth, demographic
                 shifts, and drastic changes in the economy but outside of
                 LaLa Fairy Land most of the rest of us live in the burbs and
                 work in the city.  Not because we like commuting 2-3 hours a
                 day but because we can't afford to live in the city near our
                 jobs.  I think it's funny you'd choose SF as an ideal city
                 since the public transit sucks and by plane, train, or auto-
                 mobile it can easily take an hour or more to get anywhere.
                 Manhatten is a shithole.  Paris is hardly any better.  I
                 haven't been to the other cities you mention but I suspect
                 they have suburbs and an inner city just like everywhere
                 else.  I suspect you've been reading too much utopian fantasy
                 academic literature without taking a step back and looking at
                 how real people live and why.  People aren't little cogs or
                 resource units for you to push around from one square to the
                 next.
                 \_ Singapore doesn't have any suburbs.  Everyone (>4 million)
                    lives and works in the city.
                    \_ Ok great let's add 'caning' to the books, too.  I
                       can't wait to join your Utopiaville.
                       \_ american cities were built when blacks still have
                          to sit at the back of the bus.  what's your point?
                       \_ nah, the suburbs of chicago is utopia.  very low
                          crime, living is easy but rather boring.
                    \_ or drives in on a motorbike from Malayasia --oj
                       \_ are you from catholic high or hcjc?
                    \_ Same with Hong Kong.
                 \_ I have lots of colleagues who lives in the city and works
                    in the suburbs here in Chicago.
                    \_ As I said, I've never been to Chicago.  Do you think
                       your friends are typical of the Chicago area?
                       \_ I don't know.  I guess they like the city.  I like
                          to live near my work.  I don't see why it should
                          be difficult to have the jobs move to the suburbs.
                          It's happening here in Chicago.  I rarely need to
                          go to the city.  I don't have a problem with your
                          conclusion, but the argument you are using - jobs
                          are in the city, no living space there - may not
                          be a valid assumption.  Chicago suburb cities like
                          Naperville or Schaumburg have lots of jobs, but
                          you still need a car.
                 \_ You have been brainwashed. It used to be that all workers
                    lived and worked in cities.
                    \_ This worked when you had servants willing to live in
                       tiny closets.  -John
                       \_ Do most people living in the cities have servants
                          anymore?
                          \_ Do you think many of the gardeners, shop
                             assistants, cleaners, maids, dishwashers,
                             cab drivers and other fairly low paid but
                             important blue collar workers live in
                             Manhattan?  Hint: no.  Upshot:  Yes, you can
                             create much better public transportation to
                             the suburbs than what most American cities have,
                             but you'll never have some magical fairyland
                             self-contained urban ideal.  Nor do the Euro
                             cities so many urban planning advocates cite
                             as examples have it right.  -John
                 \_ You can afford to live in the city you work in. You cannot
                    afford a 4000 sq ft house in the city you work in. My
                    commute from one side of San Francisco to the other is
                    35 minutes on a bad day, using rapid transit.
                    \_ I can't afford a 4000 sqft house in the suburbs either
                       which means I could afford about 700-900 sqft in the
                       city if I was lucky.  I've lived in that before.  No
                       thanks.  I'd rather commute 60-90 minutes.  People
                       are not rats or sardines.  By the time most people hit
                       their mid 20s, have spouses, a few kids, etc, there's
                       no way 900 sqft is cutting it.  Also, we've already
                       done the school debate and your odds of getting your
                       kids into a decent school near your home are tiny in SF.
                       \_ Wow, you tihnk 900 is small?  I grew up with a
                          family of 4 and 1200 sq ft.  900 is plenty for
                          a family of 3.  For one or two people it is close
                          to perfect.
           \_ Read "Home from Nowhere."
        \_ Even with downtown businesses, people seem to be willing to make
           the tradeoff of driving relatively far to commute there from
           suburbs.
           \_ Only because their living situation is massively subsidized.
              \_ If you actually had to pay the real costs of everything you
                 use in life you couldn't afford to be alive.  *Everything* is
                 getting subsidized in one way or another.  Let's end all those
                 evil and nasty subsidies for everything, eh?  My taxes will
                 drop to near zero and I'll happily pay directly for any of
                 the few services I still need.  You think public transit has
                 ever even come close to paying for itself?