Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 42617
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2024/11/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/23   

2006/4/3-4 [Politics/Domestic/President/Bush, Reference/Military] UID:42617 Activity:kinda low
4/2     I guess Russians are exporting those babys everywhere:
                                             \_ sic
        http://tinyurl.com/o99gq
        \_ I suspect American has something similar and it's been super
           secret about it.  Further, I don't think it's necessary to
           use such weapon on an oil tanker...
           \_ The target of such a weapon would be a US aircraft carrier,
              battleship, cruiser, or other high value, high PR target.
              The US doesn't need their own version.  What little fleet the
              Iranians have is no real threat without this.  The US needs a
              defense against such a weapon.  Imagine both the military and
              PR value of sinking a carrier or battleship?  The British lost
              a destroyer to the Argentines and it was a huge deal.
              \_ There's no mention of this being a hardened weapon. Unless
                 they have ECCM better than our ECM, these are virtually a non-
                 issue.
                 \_ original Russian version has no guidance whatsoever.  I
                    don't know what version does Iranian have.   --OP
                 \_ We have no idea if it is or isn't.  It could be completely
                    mechanical in which case ECM is useless.  If you were
                    designing a torpedo to kill large well defended American
                    Navy vessels would you leave it open to easy ECM death?
                    \_ Of course not, but I'm not the people who built this
                       torpedo. It sounds like they were told to emphasize the
                       speed, which leads me to think that they may have
                       neglected other parts.
                       \_ Exactly. Speed without accuracy using high tech
                          guidance system means nothing. The early Migs
                          flew higher and faster than the Phantom F4s but
                          the F4s had much better guidance system. For
                          every 10 Migs down there were only 1 F4 down.
                          \_ They may have emphasized speed because that was
                             the only special thing about it.  Nothing says
                             it can't still be accurate.  In WW2 purely
                             mechanical, unguided torps hit often enough to
                             be useful.  It may be shielded.  It may be wire
                             guided.  Since everything we do know comes from
                             Iranian PR, we really don't know anything except
                             what they claim.  Fighting against the US with
                             high tech is usually a bad idea for most countries
                             since they really can't out tech the US
                             sufficiently in enough fields to matter so the
                             smart thing would be to go the low-tech high-
                             powered high-reliability route.  Speculating is
                             still fun though.  As far as the mig vs phantom
                             thing goes, the American pilots were *very*
                             experienced and in Vietnam the numbers only
                             turned haevily in favor of the US after we
                             upgraded the fighter fleet and started putting
                             cannons and other close combat weapons on them
                             in addition to the flakey missile systems.
                 \_ There exist missiles that home in on the wake from
                    a ship.
        \_ This guy thinks they are dangerous: http://tinyurl.com/n4fw2
           \_ Ummm.. I don't know about the torpedo, but that dude is
              obviously a fruitcake.
              \_ Will he fit in a torpedo tube?
2024/11/23 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/23   

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Cache (1744 bytes)
tinyurl.com/o99gq -> www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=8&theme=&usrsess=1&id=111582
Iran test-fires new high-speed torpedo Associated Press TEHERAN, April 2 Iran announced its second major new missile test within days, saying today it has successfully fired a high-speed torpedo capable of destroying huge warships and submarines. The tests came during war games that Irans elite Revolutionary Guards have been holding in the Gulf and the Arabian Sea since Friday at a time of increased tensions with the USA over Teherans nuclear programme. The Iranian-made torpedo, called the Hoot or whale has a speed of 360 km per hour, said Gen. Ali Fadavi, deputy head of the Revolutionary Guards Navy. That would make it about three or four times faster than a normal torpedo and as fast as the worlds fastest known underwater missile, the Russian-made VA-111 Shkval, developed in 1995. It was not immediately known if the Hoot was based on the Shkval. It has a very powerful warhead designed to hit big submarines. Even if enemy warship sensors identify the missile, no warship can escape from this missile because of its high speed, Fadavi told state-run television. It was not immediately clear whether the torpedo can carry a nuclear warhead. State-run television, which stopped its normal programmes to break news of the test, showed a brief clip of the launch from a ship into the waters of the Gulf. Television pictures also showed the torpedo hitting the target, a ship on the surface of the water. The new weapon could raise concerns over Irans naval power in the Gulf, where during the war with Iraq in the 1980s Iranian forces attacked oil tankers from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Discussion on this International item Disclaimer: These are Internet generated discussion threads for which the The Statesman has no responsibility.
Cache (6574 bytes)
tinyurl.com/n4fw2 -> www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Armageddon_0402.html
Major studios rarely take on Washington, and cynicism about the way the media manipulate public opinion is rarer still, but Wag the Dog told the story of a President using the invasion of another country to drown out a damaging scandal. Although the story's closest historical referent was Reagan's invasion of Grenada (which conveniently distracted Americans from the death of 241 American soldiers in a single Beirut suicide bombing), and the movie's substitution of a sex scandal for the Beirut tragedy made the story more Hollywood (and more Clinton). When life returned art's favor, and Clinton bombed an alleged chemical weapons plant in Sudan and heaved some cruise missiles into Afghanistan at a relatively unknown dissident Saudi named Osama-something, Republicans were quick to argue that Clinton's Monica troubles were the real reason for the attacks. In addition to nearly 3000 dead American soldiers, he has killed tens of thousands of civilians and destroyed a country. But that is not the disaster they are concerned with: One of the reasons President Bush has been so slow to admit failure in Iraq is because, in his mind it still isn't a failure. argued a year and a half ago, the invasion and occupation of Iraq was and remains a success in Bush's view. The only fly in the ointment is the war's domestic unpopularity. As public opinion has turned, the gravy train is increasingly endangered. In a rational world, Bush's dismal track record (by our standards) would hasten the handing of the car keys to a designated driver. In the strange world that Bush and Karl Rove inhabit, it means that a bigger distraction must be created. The public groundwork for that new distraction is now being laid. I don't mean to dismiss Iran's history of bad acts or its potential to wreak future havoc. But our approach should acknowledge that there is a huge difference between Iran and Iraq from a military standpoint. Much of Iraq's military strength was destroyed in the first Gulf War; more than a decade of sanctions further reduced the effectiveness of what remained. Iran, in contrast, has used the nearly two decades since the end of the Iran-Iraq war to create a formidable military. F-22 is to a WWII-era Spitfire, and that there are no effective countermeasures. Our Fifth Fleet, which patrols the Persian Gulf, is completely vulnerable. The first several times I read Gaffney's article, I was reassured by the belief that the powers that be must know far better than I do that an attack on Iran would result in devastating losses to the Fifth Fleet. I assumed, therefore, that our saber-rattling was nothing more than that, and that even George Bush was not crazy enough to risk such horrible losses by actually attacking Iran. But George Bush and his enablers apply a calculus not grounded in conventional morality. So we must consider branches of the decision tree that sane people would not. I recently re-read Gaffney's article, and had a premonition more horrifying than any of the other nightmares with which I have darkened this space. What would happen if, for whatever reason, Iran sank a couple of American warships? George Bush would find another megaphone and another telegenic pile of bubble to stand on. The Andrew Sullivans and Thomas Friedmans of the world would drag their laptops and their Huggies with then as they dive under their beds, and again write trembling jibberish praising their Savior in Chief. And millions who only recently wandered out of Camp Jingo would scurry back in mortal fear. The cowed millions would demand action, and action they would get. Bush would round up his nuclear posse and unleash an unprecedented retaliation. Iran would glow for millennia with the radiation of a thousand nuclear warheads in the first all-out nuclear strike in history. Millions of Iranians, or perhaps tens of millions, would die. Bush's poll numbers would regain their former heights, and talk of censure and Valerie Plame and Katrina would dissolve into the radioactive haze that would blanket the planet. Or perhaps we would withdraw regardless, having made a superseding, definitive statement of Texas testosterone. Either way, an Administration currently besieged on all sides would again ride high. My nightmare is that our rulers are now trying to figure out how to achieve this desirable result. Absent provocation like the sinking of a few US ships, Bush will never get away with going nukular against Iran. "Incredibly, we are on now upon the second iteration of that genus of questions. goad Saddam into throwing the first punch against us three years ago." It is probably safe to assume that such high-school logic still prevails. So the Administration will look for ways to provoke such an attack again. There are many viable options: we could attack Israel pretending to be Iran; In the superheated environment we have helped to create, it won't take much to ignite an inferno. Another is the possibility that Bush will ask Israel to take credit for starting the fight. approvingly and I find it hard to believe that the Reagan Administration was unaware of the plan, despite the fact that US would soon back Iraq in its war with Iran, which had just released the American embassy hostages a few months earlier. Whatever the contrived provocation, Dubya can probably count on President Ahmadinejad to respond to even a small-scale strike with a retaliation that would cost us at least an aircraft carrier. And the loss of even a single ship would trigger a "Remember the Maine" conflagration that would widely and properly be seen as a holocaust. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of Americans would die in a day as the Fifth Fleet was sacrificed. Bush would see no disincentive there -- the thousands of American soldiers killed so far have not altered his calculus. General Motors and Ford would sink absent massive bailouts our resurgent spendthrift emperor will be happy to disburse. Many thousands of square miles of Iran would become uninhabitable for thousands of years, dwarfing Chernobyl in scope, but what right-thinking Christian would want to live there anyway? Do those costs outweigh a thirty or forty point jump in Bush's approval ratings? No sane person can look at the possibility of such horrors and not shiver with revulsion. But recent history shows that there are no sane people making these decisions. When sanity again prevails in the White House, I will gladly dismiss the unthinkable as impossible. John Steinberg is a Senior Recidivist with the Poor Man Institute for Freedom and Democracy and a Pony.