3/31 http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/business/31cnd-delphi.html
"The actions by Delphi [largest U.S. auto-parts maker], which filed for
Chapter 11 last October, would eliminate 20,000 hourly jobs in the
U.S., or about 60 percent of its total work force. It will cut another
8,500 salaried jobs worldwide."
\_ it's about time... I just don't see how can they justify
hourly wages that doubles average Cal graduates?
\_ Short answer: they can't. The unions and auto companies painted
themselves into a corner over the last three decades. Why do
you think Delphi went bankrupt, cf Airline indusry. -dans
\_ Auto industry and Airlines industry are not meaningfully
comparable. This is a good example of the "dans phenomena"
\_ You're wrong. -dans
mocked below. They both have unions, but that's a pretty
obvious factor. But say the role of "globalization" has a
different role in the two sectors. Maybe the steel industry
is a better comparison, but I haven't given it that much
thought. Look at this this way: it is possible in a generation
there will be no US car makers [like there are no US TV
makers left, I believe], but in a generation there clearly
will be domestic air carriers ... all of the names in
existence now might exit the market, but the sector or
industry wont collapse. dans: you may want to read a book
on Industrial Organization.
\_ Economists make meaningful comparisons between the two.
Are they wrong because they do not devote their time to
studying Industrial Organization? -dans
\_ Cite please.
\_ FYI. months ago, a NPR piece did a comparison by interviewing
an auto part worker in China and an auto parts worker in US.
While US worker is clearly more productive and more
knowledgable, the woman in China was making $2.1 / hr,
the guy in US was making close to $40/hr.
\_ I'd rather have a more expensive car that might actually
work and be much less likely to get me killed. I don't
care who made my napkins, tshirts, or my cheapy clock radio
but anything that kills people should be built by someone
who knows what they're doing.
\_ What does this comment have to do with the discussion?
Are you implying that Chinese workers who had proper
training can't build quality cars? BTW, BMW has a major
factory in China.
\_ Chinese auto parts are already made its way to USA
so if you really want to avoid Chinese made auto parts,
I would recommend you look carefully when you go to
Pepboys. Further, I STRONGLY you avoid Dell LCD
monitors, Nikon lenses, AND write a letter to AirBus
to stop using Chinese parts :p
\_ You provide no context for this. What's your point? Why should
we, the denizens of the motd care? I mean, it's interesting to me,
but I was already aware of it. (now I'm being pedantic) -dans
\_ First they came for the Jews but I didn't care because I wasn't
a Jew. Then they came for the....
\_ I am Jewish. If you are comparing your capacity to post
\_ So what? So are many others here. That doesn't
grant you any special rights or powers. If another
Jew made that comment does it cancel out your
Jewishness?
\_ Don't be obtuse. -dans
drivel on the motd with the failure of German citizenry
in Nazi Germany to speak out about the systematic roundup and
extermination of the Jews, you have a ridiculously inflated
sense of self-importance. I suppose you think we shouldn't
clean off the handiwork of taggers either? -dans
\_ No, I'm comparing tech geeks saying it doesn't matter if
blue collar people get fucked because the geeks aren't
blue collar. It's an analogy and I wasn't the op but I
understood what they were saying without them having to
tediously spell it out or quote the dictionary.
\_ I don't see any tech geeks on this thread saying that
it doesn't matter if blue collar people get fucked. I
see me asking the OP to provide some discussion of why
\_ I didn't. Be more explicit in the future.
You're very insistent on other people
leaving no ambiguity in their writing.
\_ So what prompted your comparison? -dans
s/he feels his link is interesting as opposed to just
quoting from the link verbatim. Also, the comparison
is grossly flawed. Comparing the firing of unionized
\_ It is an analogy not a direct comparison.
\_ comparison was the word you used. -dans
workers by a bankrupt company to the systematic genocide
of an entire race is stretching hyperbole to the point
of absurdity and pretty damned tasteless. Furthermore,
the blue collar vs. white collar comparison does not
hold water. You might pose it as a union vs. non-union
\_ Please support your statement with facts.
\_ Your comparison suggests that blue
collar workers and white collar workers
could be meaningfully mapped onto
repressed ethnic/cultural groups in Nazi
Germany. Who are the blue collar
workers? Jews? Who are the white
collar workers? The French. This
example I just gave does not make sense
for a number of reasons. Do you have
one that does? -dans
comparison, but that makes no sense because the
economics of unionized industries (e.g. autos) have
non-trivial differences with the economics of
non-unionized industries (e.g. computers). -dans
\_ In what ways? Why can't or shouldn't other
industries be unionized?
\_ I'm not suggesting they can't or
shouldn't. The reality is that the
computer industry is not unionized.
Market forces are dramatically curtailed
in unionized industries, which leads to
artificially inflated wages. In the
short term, this benefits employees,
but, in the long term, it leads to
problems, cf Delphi or major airlines
going bankrupt because they can't
negotiate salaries on an individual
basis. -dans
\_ I guess the lesson of this and the next post is, don't post
news items without adding at least a tiny bit of personal
opinion or question for discussion purposes.
\_ Exactly. We're all smart here, most of us are tech
geeks. We're all capable of reading newspapers, AP
wires, or configuring Google News to give us
information about Iran, the labor market, or whatever.
Posting just a link and an excerpt from the link
clutters up the motd without adding any value. -dans
\_ Ditto. Let's all help out by deleting useless
political drivels from now on. I'll start first
in about an hour and you guys do the same.
-someone who REALLY hates political drivels
\_ Fuck you and die. You are starting a
fight you cannot win. Several dickheads
like you have tried in the past. Some
people here *really* care about having
this little text file to talk about
politics in, and they have more bile
and free time than you can possibly imagine.
\_ You underestimate the amount of free
time a grad student has. Unless you're
also a grad student, I wish you luck.
May the best man win. -pp, drivel hater
\_ It's not you against me. It's you
against several dozen people who
participate in the political threads.
To illustrate my point, I have not
re-posted anything on today's motd,
but you falsely believe I'm the guy
you're fighting with. That's becuase
there are quite a few people willing
to defend a free motd. If you wanted
to be surrounded by boring tech geeks
who don't give a shit about politics
you should have gone to caltech or
MIT.
MIT. If you wanted to be surrounded
by soul-less tools who never pick up
a non-technical book for fun and
whose lives revolve around making
money, you should have gone to
Stanford. If you wanted to be
surrounded by pompous coffee shop
philosophy majors who can't tell
you why there are seasons or how to
integrate a function, you should have
gone to Harvard. This is Berkeley,
\- I dont think harvard is a very
intellectual place compared to
say UChicago ... it is pretty
careerist/opportunistic. Maybe
you mean Sarah Lawrence.
and that means politics + science +
engineering + culture. If you can't
appreciate how great that is, than
at least have the decency to fuck
off.
\_ Your tone has the opposite effect
of what you're trying to
accomplish. Practice harder and
try again.
\_ so does yours.
\_ Don't get me wrong, I usually don't read or
participate in political threads because of the
drivel factor. That said, some people like those
threads, and we should respect them. What I'm
trying to discourage is random posting of links
with no explanation or context for *why* the
poster thinks its interesting. -dans
\_ "[M]embers of the U.A.W. are paid $27 an hour in wages, as part of
total compensation, including pensions, health care and other
benefits, of $78.63 an hour, according to Delphi's bankruptcy
filing." Is this claim accurate? That's about $160K per year.
\_ That sounds plausible. -dans
\_ That's nice work if you can get it. Shame it's not sustainable.
\_ That's nice work if you can get it.
\_ It's $27/hour in wages. Typically the ratio of benefits
to wages is about 1:1 so I would say that the company was
paying too much in benefits. Why would you pay $50/hour in
benefits?! I bet a lot of those employees would have
preferred no benefits and that extra $100k/year in their
pockets.
\_ You think your techie benes are cheap? And since these
guys have a good chance of getting screwed out of their
pensions, the above numbers are artificially high.
\_ $50/hour pays for an awful lot of insurance.
\_ You're wrong. Your fully burdened cost is usually 2x your
salary. However, your fully burdened cost includes costs
for things like rent for your work space and any equipment
or machinary used to support your job function. The cost
of your benefits is typically 1/4 to 1/3 of your salary.
\_ Exactly. 1:1. 2x your salary. If you think the benefits
alone should be even less then you only strengthen my
point that $50/hour seems extremely high.
\_ We care why?
\_ Because some day you too might be grievously overpaid to work
\_ Because some day you too might be grievously overpaid working
for outrageously uncompetitive companies managed by idiots.
\- how often does a bankruptcy judge abrogate contracts with
upper management?
\_ this is one of the reason why I am so pissed. Upper
management bares no responsibility for their ill deeds.
\_ How much are you paid? More than the autoworkers? Why?
\_ Because there are not 24000 guys in the world that does
what I do, while there are 24000 UAW members in Delphi
alone. It is also true that my contribution to the
company's bottom line (in revenue dollars per hour worked)
is much larger than my cost to the company (in totoal
compensation per hour worked). |
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