Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 42593
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2025/07/09 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/9     

2006/3/31-4/3 [Transportation/Car] UID:42593 Activity:high
3/31    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/business/31cnd-delphi.html
        "The actions by Delphi [largest U.S. auto-parts maker], which filed for
        Chapter 11 last October, would eliminate 20,000 hourly jobs in the
        U.S., or about 60 percent of its total work force. It will cut another
        8,500 salaried jobs worldwide."
        \_ it's about time... I just don't see how can they justify
           hourly wages that doubles average Cal graduates?
           \_ Short answer: they can't.  The unions and auto companies painted
              themselves into a corner over the last three decades.  Why do
              you think Delphi went bankrupt, cf Airline indusry. -dans
              \_ Auto industry and Airlines industry are not meaningfully
                 comparable.  This is a good example of the "dans phenomena"
                 \_ You're wrong. -dans
                 mocked below.  They both have unions, but that's a pretty
                 obvious factor. But say the role of "globalization" has a
                 different role in the two sectors.  Maybe the steel industry
                 is a better comparison, but I haven't given it that much
                 thought. Look at this this way: it is possible in a generation
                 there will be no US car makers [like there are no US TV
                 makers left, I believe], but in a generation there clearly
                 will be domestic air carriers ... all of the names in
                 existence now might exit the market, but the sector or
                 industry wont collapse.  dans: you may want to read a book
                 on Industrial Organization.
                 \_ Economists make meaningful comparisons between the two.
                    Are they wrong because they do not devote their time to
                    studying Industrial Organization? -dans
                    \_ Cite please.
              \_ FYI.  months ago, a NPR piece did a comparison by interviewing
                 an auto part worker in China and an auto parts worker in US.
                 While US worker is clearly more productive and more
                 knowledgable, the woman in China was making $2.1 / hr,
                 the guy in US was making close to $40/hr.
                 \_ I'd rather have a more expensive car that might actually
                    work and be much less likely to get me killed.  I don't
                    care who made my napkins, tshirts, or my cheapy clock radio
                    but anything that kills people should be built by someone
                    who knows what they're doing.
                    \_ What does this comment have to do with the discussion?
                       Are you implying that Chinese workers who had proper
                       training can't build quality cars? BTW, BMW has a major
                       factory in China.
                    \_ Chinese auto parts are already made its way to USA
                       so if you really want to avoid Chinese made auto parts,
                       I would recommend you look carefully when you go to
                       Pepboys.  Further, I STRONGLY you avoid Dell LCD
                       monitors, Nikon lenses, AND write a letter to AirBus
                       to stop using Chinese parts :p
        \_ You provide no context for this.  What's your point?  Why should
           we, the denizens of the motd care?  I mean, it's interesting to me,
           but I was already aware of it. (now I'm being pedantic) -dans
           \_ First they came for the Jews but I didn't care because I wasn't
              a Jew.  Then they came for the....
              \_ I am Jewish.  If you are comparing your capacity to post
                        \_ So what?  So are many others here.  That doesn't
                           grant you any special rights or powers.  If another
                           Jew made that comment does it cancel out your
                           Jewishness?
                           \_ Don't be obtuse. -dans
                 drivel on the motd with the failure of German citizenry
                 in Nazi Germany to speak out about the systematic roundup and
                 extermination of the Jews, you have a ridiculously inflated
                 sense of self-importance.  I suppose you think we shouldn't
                 clean off the handiwork of taggers either? -dans
                 \_ No, I'm comparing tech geeks saying it doesn't matter if
                    blue collar people get fucked because the geeks aren't
                    blue collar.  It's an analogy and I wasn't the op but I
                    understood what they were saying without them having to
                    tediously spell it out or quote the dictionary.
                     \_ I don't see any tech geeks on this thread saying that
                        it doesn't matter if blue collar people get fucked.  I
                        see me asking the OP to provide some discussion of why
                                \_ I didn't.  Be more explicit in the future.
                                   You're very insistent on other people
                                   leaving no ambiguity in their writing.
                                   \_ So what prompted your comparison? -dans
                        s/he feels his link is interesting as opposed to just
                        quoting from the link verbatim.  Also, the comparison
                        is grossly flawed.  Comparing the firing of unionized
                                \_ It is an analogy not a direct comparison.
                                   \_ comparison was the word you used. -dans
                        workers by a bankrupt company to the systematic genocide
                        of an entire race is stretching hyperbole to the point
                        of absurdity and pretty damned tasteless.  Furthermore,
                        the blue collar vs. white collar comparison does not
                        hold water.  You might pose it as a union vs. non-union
                                \_ Please support your statement with facts.
                                   \_ Your comparison suggests that blue
                                      collar workers and white collar workers
                                      could be meaningfully mapped onto
                                      repressed ethnic/cultural groups in Nazi
                                      Germany.  Who are the blue collar
                                      workers?  Jews?  Who are the white
                                      collar workers?  The French.  This
                                      example I just gave does not make sense
                                      for a number of reasons.  Do you have
                                      one that does? -dans
                        comparison, but that makes no sense because the
                        economics of unionized industries (e.g. autos) have
                        non-trivial differences with the economics of
                        non-unionized industries (e.g. computers). -dans
                                \_ In what ways?  Why can't or shouldn't other
                                   industries be unionized?
                                   \_ I'm not suggesting they can't or
                                      shouldn't.  The reality is that the
                                      computer industry is not unionized.
                                      Market forces are dramatically curtailed
                                      in unionized industries, which leads to
                                      artificially inflated wages.  In the
                                      short term, this benefits employees,
                                      but, in the long term, it leads to
                                      problems, cf Delphi or major airlines
                                      going bankrupt because they can't
                                      negotiate salaries on an individual
                                      basis. -dans
                 \_ I guess the lesson of this and the next post is, don't post
                    news items without adding at least a tiny bit of personal
                    opinion or question for discussion purposes.
                    \_ Exactly.  We're all smart here, most of us are tech
                       geeks.  We're all capable of reading newspapers, AP
                       wires, or configuring Google News to give us
                       information about Iran, the labor market, or whatever.
                       Posting just a link and an excerpt from the link
                       clutters up the motd without adding any value. -dans
                       \_ Ditto. Let's all help out by deleting useless
                          political drivels from now on. I'll start first
                          in about an hour and you guys do the same.
                                 -someone who REALLY hates political drivels
                                 \_ Fuck you and die.  You are starting a
                                    fight you cannot win.  Several dickheads
                                    like you have tried in the past.   Some
                                    people here *really* care about having
                                    this little text file to talk about
                                    politics in, and they have more bile
                                    and free time than you can possibly imagine.
                                     \_ You underestimate the amount of free
                                        time a grad student has. Unless you're
                                        also a grad student, I wish you luck.
                                        May the best man win. -pp, drivel hater
                                        \_ It's not you against me.  It's you
                                           against several dozen people who
                                           participate in the political threads.
                                           To illustrate my point, I have not
                                           re-posted anything on today's motd,
                                           but you falsely believe I'm the guy
                                           you're fighting with.  That's becuase
                                           there are quite a few people willing
                                           to defend a free motd.  If you wanted
                                           to be surrounded by boring tech geeks
                                           who don't give a shit about politics
                                           you should have gone to caltech or
                                           MIT.
                                           MIT.  If you wanted to be surrounded
                                           by soul-less tools who never pick up
                                           a non-technical book for fun and
                                           whose lives revolve around making
                                           money, you should have gone to
                                           Stanford.  If you wanted to be
                                           surrounded by pompous coffee shop
                                           philosophy majors who can't tell
                                           you why there are seasons or how to
                                           integrate a function, you should have
                                           gone to Harvard.  This is Berkeley,
                                           \- I dont think harvard is a very
                                              intellectual place compared to
                                              say UChicago ... it is pretty
                                              careerist/opportunistic. Maybe
                                              you mean Sarah Lawrence.
                                           and that means politics + science +
                                           engineering + culture.  If you can't
                                           appreciate how great that is, than
                                           at least have the decency to fuck
                                           off.
                                           \_ Your tone has the opposite effect
                                              of what you're trying to
                                              accomplish. Practice harder and
                                              try again.
                                              \_ so does yours.
                          \_ Don't get me wrong, I usually don't read or
                             participate in political threads because of the
                             drivel factor.  That said, some people like those
                             threads, and we should respect them.  What I'm
                             trying to discourage is random posting of links
                             with no explanation or context for *why* the
                             poster thinks its interesting. -dans
        \_ "[M]embers of the U.A.W. are paid $27 an hour in wages, as part of
           total compensation, including pensions, health care and other
           benefits, of $78.63 an hour, according to Delphi's bankruptcy
           filing."  Is this claim accurate?  That's about $160K per year.
           \_ That sounds plausible. -dans
           \_ That's nice work if you can get it.  Shame it's not sustainable.
           \_ That's nice work if you can get it.
           \_ It's $27/hour in wages. Typically the ratio of benefits
              to wages is about 1:1 so I would say that the company was
              paying too much in benefits. Why would you pay $50/hour in
              benefits?! I bet a lot of those employees would have
              preferred no benefits and that extra $100k/year in their
              pockets.
              \_ You think your techie benes are cheap?  And since these
                 guys have a good chance of getting screwed out of their
                 pensions, the above numbers are artificially high.
                 \_ $50/hour pays for an awful lot of insurance.
              \_ You're wrong.  Your fully burdened cost is usually 2x your
                 salary.  However, your fully burdened cost includes costs
                 for things like rent for your work space and any equipment
                 or machinary used to support your job function.  The cost
                 of your benefits is typically 1/4 to 1/3 of your salary.
                 \_ Exactly. 1:1. 2x your salary. If you think the benefits
                    alone should be even less then you only strengthen my
                    point that $50/hour seems extremely high.
        \_ We care why?
           \_ Because some day you too might be grievously overpaid to work
           \_ Because some day you too might be grievously overpaid working
              for outrageously uncompetitive companies managed by idiots.
              \- how often does a bankruptcy judge abrogate contracts with
                 upper management?
                 \_ this is one of the reason why I am so pissed. Upper
                    management bares no responsibility for their ill deeds.
              \_ How much are you paid?  More than the autoworkers?  Why?
                 \_ Because there are not 24000 guys in the world that does
                    what I do, while there are 24000 UAW members in Delphi
                    alone.  It is also true that my contribution to the
                    company's bottom line (in revenue dollars per hour worked)
                    is much larger than my cost to the company (in totoal
                    compensation per hour worked).
2025/07/09 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/9     

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www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/business/31cnd-delphi.html
Delphi, the nation's biggest auto-parts maker, filed a motion in court today that is likely to set off a chain of events that could cost up to 20,000 American auto workers their jobs and leave thousands of others with less than half their wages. Delphi, which is operating in bankruptcy, asked a court for permission to throw out its labor agreements and impose sharply lower wages and benefits, setting up a confrontation that the United Auto Workers said could lead to a lengthy strike. General Motors and accelerate the slide of the American auto industry. The confrontation promises to become even more fierce in coming months, as GM tries to extricate itself from its worst financial crisis in over a decade, and the UAW fights Delphi over the deepest cuts the union has ever been asked to make. In addition, Delphi asked the bankruptcy court to reject some of its contracts with General Motors, its biggest customer, which would allow Delphi to renegotiate the prices GM pays for parts. It said it would keep only eight of its American plants. "I took this job thinking this was my future," said Tracey Huffman, 37, staring blankly down at a table at Jamin's, a pool hall next to the UAW Local 651 hall on Flint's east side. The move was the first time that a major player in the automobile industry had sought to void its labor contracts, setting the stage for a precedent-setting court ruling later this year. The actions by Delphi, which filed for Chapter 11 last October, would eliminate 20,000 hourly jobs in the United States, or about 60 percent of its total work force. Delphi has about 34,000 hourly workers in the United States, with the United Automobile Workers representing about 24,000. GM, which spun off Delphi in 1999, has played a significant role in three-way discussions with Delphi and the UAW A hearing on Delphi's request is scheduled to begin May 9 If the request is granted, Delphi would be able to tear up its existing labor contracts and impose new terms. However, a judge's decision is still months off, providing time for an agreement to be reached. "Emergence from the Chapter 11 process in the US requires that we make difficult, yet necessary, decisions," Delphi's chief executive, Robert S Miller, said in a statement. "These actions will result in a stronger company with future global growth opportunities." But the UAW reacted angrily to the Delphi move, calling it "a travesty and a concern for every American." In a statement, the UAW president, Ron Gettelfinger, and vice president, Richard Shoemaker, continued, "Delphi's proposal goes far beyond cutting wages and benefits for active and retired workers. Delphi's outrageous proposal would slash the company's UAW-represented hourly work force by approximately 75 percent, devastating Delphi workers, their families and their communities." "In the event the court rejects the UAW-Delphi contract and Delphi imposes the terms of its last proposal, it appears that it will be impossible to avoid a long strike," the statement said. Meanwhile, GM, which agreed last fall to restore price cuts it had negotiated with Delphi in order to give its former unit some breathing room in bankruptcy, said it was disappointed by its former unit's bid to reject some of its contracts. That is a common tactic in bankruptcy, as companies try to lower their costs. "We disagree with Delphi's approach, but we anticipated that this step might be taken," GM's chief executive, Rick Wagoner, said in a statement. He added, "GM expects Delphi to honor its public commitments to avoid any disruption to GM operations." In its court filing, Delphi said it wanted to impose its last offer, made a week ago, which was for a $5 an hour cut in wages to $22 this year, followed by another cut to $16 an hour next year. Workers would be given $50,000 each to ease the impact of the cuts. But that offer rests on an agreement with the UAW, and financial support from GM, which has not yet agreed to pitch in. But the UAW earlier this week rejected the bid , which local union leaders said workers would undoubtedly vote down. The offer came a week after Delphi, the UAW and GM agreed on a buyout program offered to all 113,000 GM workers and 13,000 of Delphi's workers. Under the plan, which would be paid for by GM, workers could receive up to $140,000 if they agree to leave. Although judges encourage labor unions and companies to reach agreements, rather than have lower rates imposed upon them, union leaders have said they may not continue talking with Delphi. Delphi has been included in the union's practice of "pattern bargaining," which essentially calls for the same terms at each company, and cuts granted there would open the door for the automakers to demand lower wages and benefits as well. Although it has agreed to some modifications, particularly changes in health care coverage negotiated at GM and Ford last year, the UAW has not granted pay cuts at a major auto company since it agreed to concessions with Chrysler Corporation in 1978 as part of its bid for a Congressional bailout.