Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 42545
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2025/07/09 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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2006/3/30-31 [Reference/Religion] UID:42545 Activity:high
3/30    Study: Praying Won't Affect Heart Patients: http://csua.org/u/fdi
        So does this mean Yahweh ignores prayers to ensure that there's no solid
        proof of His existence?  What does Occam's Razor say about this?
        \_ Hello I'm George W Bush and I do not approve this message.
        \_ What would alarm me if I were Christian is the fact that the new
           pope claimed that he prayed to God that he not be selected pope.
           If God doesn't listen to the pope's prayers, why would he listen
           pope claimed that he prayed to Yahweh that he not be selected pope.
           If Yahweh doesn't listen to the pope's prayers, why would he listen
           to anyone else's?
           \_ Jesus asked God to take away the cup (not be crucified) from
              Him but also prayed to do God's will. God didnt save him from
              being sacrificed. God didn't answer his prayer but in a way
              he answered the part to do God's will.
        \_ The whole "God" thing is a big scam.  People just don't want to
           \_ Jesus asked Yahweh to take away the cup (not be crucified) from
              Him but also prayed to do Yahweh's will. Yahweh didnt save him from
              being sacrificed. Yahweh didn't answer his prayer but in a way
              he answered the part to do Yahweh's will.
        \_ The whole "Yahweh" thing is a big scam.  People just don't want to
           admit that they were suckers.
           "Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
            by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." -- Seneca
        \_ Ever seen the Jimmy Stwart movie Harvey? What's the difference
           between Harvey (the 6ft tall rabbit that only Jimmy Stewart's
           character can see) and Jesus? Not a whole heck of alot if you ask me
           \_ The difference is that Jesus is a histocial figure who is
              reported to have made miracles happen.  Harvey is a movie
              character.  The only question is do you believe the historical
              reports or not?  If not, then you need to come up with a reason
              those reports exist in the first place.  If so, then it is a
              question of 'how did he do it?'  If it was Divine then case
              closed.  The Divine can not be measured since it doesn't have
              to follow the laws of physics, science, etc and is assumed to
              have self-will and the power to change reality.  If it was some
              sort of super science, hypnotism, mass halucination, etc, then
              how that came about needs to be explained.  I'm an atheist but
              I have no issues with Christians or other religious types.  Their
              business is theirs and mine is mine.  The rare few who made the
              mistake of trying to convert me found themselves trying to answer
              unanswerable questions.  Most are more polite than that.  I find
              the faith-based atheists who are really more "anti-christians"
              than true thought derived atheists to be far more obnoxious and
              hateful than any Christians or other religious types.  The key
              to all of this is that no matter what you decide for yourself,
              you still can't prove or disprove the existence of God through
              you still can't prove or disprove the existence of Yahweh through
              the scientific method or through pure faith.  You can only make
              a rude ass of yourself.  If everyone was simply nicer to each
              other the world would be a better place.  So go back and ask
              yourself again the difference between a ficticious Hollywood
              character and a historical figure who is reported to have done
              things we can't explain 2000 years later.
              \_ What "reports"? there is only the bible's own word for it.
                 \_ The bible has made mention of the locations of places once
                    thought mythical that were found later by archaeologists.
                    It is not so easily dismissed with a hand wave.  There is
                    truth in the bible.  I'm sure there's also lies, and
                    misunderstanding and misinterpretation as well.  It was
                    2000 years ago and has to be understood in that context.
                    The problem is not whether or not the bible is fairy tale
                    or truth, but how much of each and to what degree for
                    everything in it.  --atheist
                    \_ Examples? I know it mentions places that exist and
                       events that happened, substantiated by evidence or
                       other sources. That has zero to do with the miracles.
                       \_ It says you can't outright dismiss the whole thing
                          as fairy tales.  It raises the question that if it
                          got some things right we thought were false, then
                          what is the explanation for the rest?  I already
                          said, it could be anything  from outright lies to
                          the Divine, alien super science or simply stories
                          not originally intended to be taken literally.
                          \_ The Bible is set in real-world locations and
                             real-world times. That doesn't lend credibility
                             to the mythology any more than the doings of Zeus
                             and friends in the Iliad just because of new
                             archaelogical information about Troy and Mycenae.
                             Did the River Xanthus rise up against Achilles
                             after he single-handedly choked it up with bodies
                             of Trojans? Did Aeneas get whisked away magically
                             by the Gods to escape death? Thousands of troops
                             must have seen this stuff so it must be real.
              \_ The difference between Harvey and Jesus is that Harvey's
                 existance isn't detailed in a book riddled with
                 inconsistencies and totally inexplicable nonsense.
                 \_ Yes, this is exactly the sort of faith-based atheism
                    I was talking about.
                        \_ Except I'm not an atheist. -- pp
                           \_ So Christianity is a competing religion then?
                              What do you believe in?
                                \_ I'm agnostic.  I don't see a problem in
                                   believing in a God or not, but the more
                                   believing in a Yahweh or not, but the more
                                   I read the bible the more I'm convinced
                                   you have to be basically insane to believe
                                   the majority of it.  And saying "well don't
                                   interpret it literally" is stupid.  You're
                                   basing your entire belief system on what
                                   is written in this old book, if you had a
                                   physics book that contained 60% stuff that
                                   didn't reflect reality, would you believe
                                   any of it?
                                   \_ Grr, this is annoying.  Someone rolled
                                      back the motd.  Anyone, my previous
                                      answer is the same: I would neither
                                      outright accept nor dismiss the other
                                      40%, which is all I'm saying about the
                                      bible.
                                        \_ I'm sure there are some pearls of
                                           wisdom buried in "Mein Kampf" too,
                                           but I wouldn't base my belief system
                                           on that book either.
                   \_ How is saying the the Bible is riddled with
                      inconsistencies and inexplicable nonsense "faith-based
                      atheism"?  If you're _actually_ an atheist and not just
                      using it as an arguing point, then you know for yourself
                      that there are any number of examples to support both
                      of those claims.
                      \_ Because you don't *know* which claims are true or
                         false and to what degree so dismissing all of them
                         and then being openly hostile and aggressive towards
                         those who believe there might be something to it is
                         no better than the people who blindly accept all of
                         it as literal truth and push it on you.
                         \_ Of course we know which claims are false, assuming
                            you believe in fact-based reality.  Earth is 10,000
                            years old? Obviously false.  Noah's ark? Totally
                            impossible nonsense.  A star falling into the
                            ocean? Can't happen either.
        \_ I hate it when politicians make policy decisions based on
           a book that was first probably oral tradition, who knows
           who the heck came up with it, then written in Aramaic, then
           some parts in Greek, throw some Hebrew and Latin in,
           and along we come along and translate it into the King's
           English, and then dumbasses say "IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE,
           SO IT IS WRITTEN".
           \_ I wouldn't out right dismiss all of it
              but I wouldn't blindly accept it either
              which is all I'm saying about the bible.
              \_ [ this was originally in response to something totally
                   different.  it'd be nice if people were more careful
                   with their edits ]
           \_ Exactly.  This is why now is not the right time to be a "just
              leave them be" atheist.  People are electing leaders not on the
              basis of qualifications, but because of their fanatastical
              beliefs.  Our nation is unwilling to find Muslim ethics wanting
              because they're based on faith and holy books.  It's impossible
              to have factual, logical, intelligent debates about many topics
              related to medical ethics because of religious assertions that
              CANNOT be refuted with fact, because fact is irrelevant to the
              discussion.  These are serious problems with being a "they're
              not hurting anyone with their beliefs" atheist.
              \_ People have always elected leaders, in part, based on their
                 religion.  They said Kennedy would never get elected because
                 he was Catholic.  Yet... somehow he did.  Have more _faith_
                 in people (heh).  And careful siding too closely with so
                 called medical ethics professionals.  Some of them have
                 made some really outlandish statements by anyone's measure.
                 \_ Who said I was siding with "ethics professionals"  I said
                    we couldn't have intelligent debate because it's FORBIDDEN
                    to question blind faith!  You can argue logical points in
                    a scientific manner, and perform tests to aquire better
                    supporting facts, but in a culture where "my religion says
                    X" completely ends all possibility of debate, something is
                    WRONG.
       \_ Study is flawed. The patients didn't pray hard enough.   -jesus
        \_ "Do not tempt the Lord your God" .. split into 3 groups?
        \_ "Do not tempt God" .. split into 3 groups?
        \_ "Do not tempt Yahweh" .. split into 3 groups?
            sounds unauthentic
           \_ Huh?
            \_ Where does it say that?
                \_ Matthew 4:7 "you shall not test the Lord your God"
                \_ Matthew 4:7 "you shall not test God"
                   \_ Why the frack not?
        \_ God does answers prayers.  Sometimes the answer is no.  A chant
                \_ Matthew 4:7 "you shall not test Yahweh"
        \_ Yahweh does answers prayers.  Sometimes the answer is no.  A chant
           leading to a result is magic, not Christianity.
           \_ No he doesn't. What do you base that on? Give me one example
              of a prayer having been answered.
              \_ All my life I have been an athiest, but a few years ago I
                 got so tired of shitting in the stall next to this really
                 annoying guy I used to work with that I started to pray to
                 the shit gods that he not have to shit at the same time as I
                 did.  Well, he stopped shitting at the same time and my
                 prayers were answered.  So now I believe in the shit god.
              \_ My cs170 final, for starters....
                 \_ As long as there are exams, prayer in schools will never
                    be eradicated.
              \_ I've had prayers clearly answered.  Sometimes the answer was
                 no.  Sometimes the answer has what I expected, and sometimes
                 wasn't.  It very much depends on the individual and the
                 circumstances.  Which is why it could never be reliably
                 studied by the scientific method IMO. -emarkp
                 \_ "Sometimes, when I cross myself before I take a free
                    throw, my prayer is answered and I make it.  Sometimes
                    the answer is no and I miss it.  Sometimes I miss it
                    but get the rebound and get two points.  It very much
                    depends on the individual and the circumstances."
                    Complete cop-out.  If there is any real effect to
                    prayer, that effect is measurable by scientific
                    methods.  -tom
                    \_ I'm glad you have so much faith in the scientific
                       method.  I don't a tool to this level of worship
                       however.  If a phenomenon is inherently subjective, it
                       can't be tested by science, which doesn't make it false,
                       it simply can't be admitted into scientific theory.
                       \_ If prayers can be answered, the phenomenon is not
                          "inherently subjective."  What is subjective is
                          someone's *belief* that their prayer was answered.
                          It is certainly the case that people believe
                          all kinds of stuff with no evidence other than
                          their own subjective feelings.  -tom
                          \_ You seem to think "answering prayer" means
                             "granting a request".  It doesn't. -emarkp
                             \_ You seem to think that what goes on inside
                                your head when you pray has some relation
                                to external reality.  It doesn't.  -tom
                                \_ Thoughts have no relation to external
                                   reality? That's a pretty impressive
                                   assertion tom. -emarkp
                                   \_ Why? Is there some difficulty with
                                      asserting that, and if so what?
                                      \_ Well, there is that whole
                                         observer problem.
                                        \_ Alright, I suppose it is a poor
                                           way to phrase it. Nevertheless, in
                                           context we are talking about
                                           assigning religious meaning to
                                           someone's thoughts. This starts to
                                           smack of schizophrenia.
                                           \_ Where'd you get your license to
                                              practice psychiatry?  Do you even
                                              know what schizophrenia is?
                                              \_ Yes. But if it makes you feel
                                                 better, substitute "psychosis"
                                                 so we don't have to argue the
                                                 details.
                  \_ No you haven't. You've prayed for something, and it
                     happened, or it didn't. It would have happened regardless.
                     \_ With all due respect (i.e. none) I'm a better authority
                        on my own experience than you are. -emarkp
                        \_ No, you're not. Because you filter everything that
                           you experience through your warped sense of reality.
                           I bet you consider feelings experienced in your mind
                           as divine contact.
                           \_ Why is "my" sense of reality warped Mr. Anonymous
                              Troll? -emarkp
                              \_ Is Jesus your Friend?
                              \_ That's my judgement of those who do what I say
                                 in my last sentence.
                                 \_ Judge not lest ye be judged!  (heh, sorry,
                                    someone had to say it).
                              \_ Everyone's sense of reality is warped. No one
                                 experiences the world as it really is b/c the
                                 brain/mind is constantly filtering and inter-
                                 preting the inputs from our senses and trying
                                 to form predictive patterns.
                                 If you have all these notions of external
                                 powers stuck in your head, you end up using
                                 those notions to evaluate your experiences,
                                 rather than assessing them objectively.
                                 In the end, it is all just a bunch of neuro-
                                 transmitters flowing between neurons.
                     The real trick is to try praying for something that
                     really couldn't happen without a prayer. You'll find those
                     will never ever be "answered".
                     Well, I guess one area where religious people get points
                     is with other religious people. For example, being
                     religious is a prerequisite to get with some religious
                     girls. So, if you really like a religious girl and
                     pray and stuff then there's a much better chance of
                     getting with her than if you didn't. That much is
                     probably scientifically provable :)
           \_ An effect indistinguishable from random chance either:
              a) doesn't exist
              b) is irrelevant
              Which is it?
              \_ what part of do "not test the Lord" do you not understand?
                 \_ The part where "the Lord" exists, maybe?
              \_ what part of do "not test God" do you not understand?
                 \_ The part where "God" exists, maybe?
              \_ what part of do "not test Yahweh" do you not understand?
                 \_ The part where "Yahweh" exists, maybe?
                 \_ I understand cop-outs perfectly well.  In fact, that's
                    the same cop-out psychics use.  -tom
                    \_ Have you ever read The Men Who Stare at Goats?
                 \_ It's still indistinguishable from the case where there
                    is no God and no prayers being answered. You can call
                    is no Yahweh and no prayers being answered. You can call
                    that a test if you want. -!pp
        \_ Actually, it probably means that God's install of Spam Assassin
        \_ Actually, it probably means that Yahweh's install of Spam Assassin
           is working (given he's had billions of yrs, or at least 6K yrs,
           to train it, I'm not surprised).
           Of course, this presupposes that the Universe is real and
           separate from God.
           Of course, this presupposes that the Universe is real and separate
           from God.
           from Yahweh.
           \_ Thank you, Bishop Berkeley.
        \_ How Jesus taught us to pray:
           Our Father in Heaven, Hallowed be thy Name
           Thy kingdom come.  Thy will be done,
           on earth, as it is in heaven
           Give us this day our daily bread
           Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debters
           And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
           For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever.
           Amen.
        \_ Prayers are not just the asking of things.  A prayer is a dialogue
           with the Lord, through which we build a closer relationship with
           him.  It could be like a child talking to her father, or a friend
           talking to a friend.  God listens to the righteous, and reveals
           talking to a friend.  Yahweh listens to the righteous, and reveals
           himself to those who seek him.  He hears those who cry out to him.

           "Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him,
            "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
            He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a
            miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of
            the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three
            nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
            three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

           Some relevant verses:
           Matthew 12:38-42
           Matthew 13:58
           Isaiah 58:9 (read the whole of 58)
           \_ This debate is not about prayer-as-conversation.  It is directly
              about the much vaunted "power of prayer" to DO things.  Talking
              to a parent does not effect physical change unless the parent
              DOES something.  If they DO, it's measurable.  Look, either God
              DOES something.  If they DO, it's measurable.  Look, either Yahweh
              can be cajoled into doing things or He can't.  If He can't, then
              everything happens according to His Plan and there is no free
              will.  If he can, then prayer is certainly making a request, no
              matter how many "be it your will..." and "if it pleases you..."
              clauses you add to your request.
              \_ Essentially, what you want is to be shown a miracle.  And
                 I've already pointed out above as to why you won't see one.
                 Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean prayers aren't
                 answered.
                 \_ Which is why, again? Can you articulate it in simple terms?
                    (Also, isn't it noteworthy that in the Bible, first God and
                    (Also, isn't it noteworthy that in the Bible, first Yahweh and
                    then Jesus gains followers by the use of direct miracles?
                    c.f. Jesus walking on water blah blah resurrecting, c.f.
                    burning bushes and clouds and booming heavenly voices.
                    \_ You know about the miracles, so why are you asking
                       for more?  God is sovereign.  He is not obligated to
                       \_ The point is I know what miracles it SAYS happened,
                          and by the Bible's own internal logic it's reasonable
                          to expect some sort of proof, but I don't actually
                          have any personal evidence nor do I believe the
                          unsubstantiated reports in the Bible.
                          \_ If you want personal evidence, why don't you
                             start praying and seeking him then.
                          \_ If you want personal evidence, you can start
                             praying and seeking him.
                             \_ So in your world, you have to first believe
                                in it before you can get evidence for it.
                                No, that is insane. And I've never talked to
                                anyone who actually had personal evidence.
                                Why don't you describe yours hmm?
                                \_ Praying and seeking doesn't mean belief.
                                   If you want witnesses, there are plenty
                                   of books and video documentaries with
                                   testimonies, or you can find a church.
                                   Another way would be to follow Isaiah 58,
                                   and do what is righteous, or follow
                                   what Jesus teaches.
                       for more?  Yahweh is sovereign.  He is not obligated to
                       perform any miracle, or 5 miracles per century.  He
                       is not obligated to perform any miracle to prove his
                       existence to you.  And what seperates us from him is
                       our sin; it is not the lack of or abundance of miracles.
                       The people who saw Jesus performed miracles, also nailed
                       him to the cross.
                       p.s. Read the book of Esther.  Did God perform any
                       p.s. Read the book of Esther.  Did Yahweh perform any
                       miracles in the events in Esther?
                       \_ The point is I know what miracles it SAYS happened,
                          and by the Bible's own internal logic it's reasonable
                          to expect some sort of proof, but I don't actually
                          have any personal evidence nor do I believe the
                          unsubstantiated reports in the Bible.
                          \_ If you want personal evidence, you can start
                             praying and seeking him.
                             \_ So in your world, you have to first believe
                                in it before you can get evidence for it.
                                No, that is insane. And I've never talked to
                                anyone who actually had personal evidence.
                                Why don't you describe yours hmm?
                                \_ Praying and seeking doesn't mean belief.
                                   If you want witnesses, there are plenty
                                   of books and video documentaries with
                                   testimonies, or you can find a church.
                                   Another way would be to follow Isaiah 58,
                                   and do what is righteous, or follow
                                   what Jesus teaches.
                                   \_ Praying is communicating with something
                                      I believe doesn't exist and doesn't
                                      answer... I call that insanity.
                                      The testimonies are worthless for
                                      one reason or another (name one and
                                      I'll tell you why). You also haven't
                                      answered my last question.
                                      \_ Try the other way then - i.e. Doing
                                         what is righteous.  That's the
                                         harder way, but it leads to a
                                         stronger faith.
                                         \_ But that's the point. Determining
                                            what is righteous is something
                                            we can discuss rationally.
                                            (and besides, nobody agrees on
                                            what the religions really say
                                            is righteous.)
                                            Baseless faith is dumb. I have
                                            a certain faith in family and
                                            friends because I know them from
                                            past experience. I also have a
                                            more limited faith in other
                                            fellow humans, based on my
                                            dealings with them in general.
                                            I have no faith in Yahweh.
                                            \_ Yes, we have faith in
                                               God for we experienced him,
                                               and he is faithful, and
                                               good, and just, and his love
                                               endures.
                                               \_ If you "experienced" Yahweh,
                                                  then you don't need faith.
                                                  Which is it? (and, what was
                                                  the nature of this experience?
                                                  the nature of this
                                                  experience?
                                                  \_ When you say you have
                                                     faith in someone, what
                                                     does it mean?
                                                     \_ It is belief; belief
                                                        that they can be relied
                                                        on in certain ways. In
                                                        the case of Yahweh, I
                                                        guess it is about belief
                                                        that what is said about
                                                        him is true (bible), but
                                                        mainly for me the truth
                                                        "how he is" is pretty
                                                        much irrelevant, what
                                                        guess it is about
                                                        belief that what is
                                                        said about him is true
                                                        (bible), but mainly for
                                                        me the truth "how he
                                                        is" is pretty much
                                                        irrelevant, what
                                                        matters is if he exists
                                                        in the first place. If
                                                        you "experienced" him
                                                        then you must not have
                                                        such doubts, non?
                                         why are you averse to my _/
                                         calling it that? It helps to
                                         distinguish the Judeo-Christian
                                         God from other possible
                                         conceptions, which may be
                                         far more interesting.
                                            \_ Yes, we have faith in
                                               God for we experienced him,
                                               and he is faithful, and
                                               good, and just, and his love
                                               endures.
                                               endures forever.
                                         \_ feel free to use Yahweh,
                                            just don't change God
                                            to Yahweh for what other
                                            people wrote.  Someone
                                            was doing that.
                                         \_ YASHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUA!
        \_ I find your lack of faith disturbing. -dvader
           \_ "The force bugs are strong within him".
2025/07/09 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
7/9     

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Email This Article (03-30) 10:01 PST NEW YORK, (AP) -- In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications. Researchers emphasized that their work can't address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said. They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them. Critics said the question of God's reaction to prayers simply can't be explored by scientific study. The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and other scientists tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing for two weeks. The volunteers prayed for "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for specific patients, for whom they were given the first name and first initial of the last name. The patients, meanwhile, were split into three groups of about 600 apiece: those who knew they were being prayed for, those who were prayed for but only knew it was a possibility, and those who weren't prayed for but were told it was a possibility. The researchers didn't ask patients or their families and friends to alter any plans they had for prayer, saying such a step would have been unethical and impractical. The study looked for any complications within 30 days of the surgery. Results showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52 percent of those who were told it was just a possibility. Harold G Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center, who didn't take part in the study, said the results didn't surprise him. "There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said. "There is no god in either the Christian, Jewish or Moslem scriptures that can be constrained to the point that they can be predicted." Within the Christian tradition, God would be expected to be concerned with a person's eternal salvation, he said, and "why would God change his plans for a particular person just because they're in a research study?" Science, he said, "is not designed to study the supernatural."