3/30 Study: Praying Won't Affect Heart Patients: http://csua.org/u/fdi
So does this mean Yahweh ignores prayers to ensure that there's no solid
proof of His existence? What does Occam's Razor say about this?
\_ Hello I'm George W Bush and I do not approve this message.
\_ What would alarm me if I were Christian is the fact that the new
pope claimed that he prayed to God that he not be selected pope.
If God doesn't listen to the pope's prayers, why would he listen
pope claimed that he prayed to Yahweh that he not be selected pope.
If Yahweh doesn't listen to the pope's prayers, why would he listen
to anyone else's?
\_ Jesus asked God to take away the cup (not be crucified) from
Him but also prayed to do God's will. God didnt save him from
being sacrificed. God didn't answer his prayer but in a way
he answered the part to do God's will.
\_ The whole "God" thing is a big scam. People just don't want to
\_ Jesus asked Yahweh to take away the cup (not be crucified) from
Him but also prayed to do Yahweh's will. Yahweh didnt save him from
being sacrificed. Yahweh didn't answer his prayer but in a way
he answered the part to do Yahweh's will.
\_ The whole "Yahweh" thing is a big scam. People just don't want to
admit that they were suckers.
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." -- Seneca
\_ Ever seen the Jimmy Stwart movie Harvey? What's the difference
between Harvey (the 6ft tall rabbit that only Jimmy Stewart's
character can see) and Jesus? Not a whole heck of alot if you ask me
\_ The difference is that Jesus is a histocial figure who is
reported to have made miracles happen. Harvey is a movie
character. The only question is do you believe the historical
reports or not? If not, then you need to come up with a reason
those reports exist in the first place. If so, then it is a
question of 'how did he do it?' If it was Divine then case
closed. The Divine can not be measured since it doesn't have
to follow the laws of physics, science, etc and is assumed to
have self-will and the power to change reality. If it was some
sort of super science, hypnotism, mass halucination, etc, then
how that came about needs to be explained. I'm an atheist but
I have no issues with Christians or other religious types. Their
business is theirs and mine is mine. The rare few who made the
mistake of trying to convert me found themselves trying to answer
unanswerable questions. Most are more polite than that. I find
the faith-based atheists who are really more "anti-christians"
than true thought derived atheists to be far more obnoxious and
hateful than any Christians or other religious types. The key
to all of this is that no matter what you decide for yourself,
you still can't prove or disprove the existence of God through
you still can't prove or disprove the existence of Yahweh through
the scientific method or through pure faith. You can only make
a rude ass of yourself. If everyone was simply nicer to each
other the world would be a better place. So go back and ask
yourself again the difference between a ficticious Hollywood
character and a historical figure who is reported to have done
things we can't explain 2000 years later.
\_ What "reports"? there is only the bible's own word for it.
\_ The bible has made mention of the locations of places once
thought mythical that were found later by archaeologists.
It is not so easily dismissed with a hand wave. There is
truth in the bible. I'm sure there's also lies, and
misunderstanding and misinterpretation as well. It was
2000 years ago and has to be understood in that context.
The problem is not whether or not the bible is fairy tale
or truth, but how much of each and to what degree for
everything in it. --atheist
\_ Examples? I know it mentions places that exist and
events that happened, substantiated by evidence or
other sources. That has zero to do with the miracles.
\_ It says you can't outright dismiss the whole thing
as fairy tales. It raises the question that if it
got some things right we thought were false, then
what is the explanation for the rest? I already
said, it could be anything from outright lies to
the Divine, alien super science or simply stories
not originally intended to be taken literally.
\_ The Bible is set in real-world locations and
real-world times. That doesn't lend credibility
to the mythology any more than the doings of Zeus
and friends in the Iliad just because of new
archaelogical information about Troy and Mycenae.
Did the River Xanthus rise up against Achilles
after he single-handedly choked it up with bodies
of Trojans? Did Aeneas get whisked away magically
by the Gods to escape death? Thousands of troops
must have seen this stuff so it must be real.
\_ The difference between Harvey and Jesus is that Harvey's
existance isn't detailed in a book riddled with
inconsistencies and totally inexplicable nonsense.
\_ Yes, this is exactly the sort of faith-based atheism
I was talking about.
\_ Except I'm not an atheist. -- pp
\_ So Christianity is a competing religion then?
What do you believe in?
\_ I'm agnostic. I don't see a problem in
believing in a God or not, but the more
believing in a Yahweh or not, but the more
I read the bible the more I'm convinced
you have to be basically insane to believe
the majority of it. And saying "well don't
interpret it literally" is stupid. You're
basing your entire belief system on what
is written in this old book, if you had a
physics book that contained 60% stuff that
didn't reflect reality, would you believe
any of it?
\_ Grr, this is annoying. Someone rolled
back the motd. Anyone, my previous
answer is the same: I would neither
outright accept nor dismiss the other
40%, which is all I'm saying about the
bible.
\_ I'm sure there are some pearls of
wisdom buried in "Mein Kampf" too,
but I wouldn't base my belief system
on that book either.
\_ How is saying the the Bible is riddled with
inconsistencies and inexplicable nonsense "faith-based
atheism"? If you're _actually_ an atheist and not just
using it as an arguing point, then you know for yourself
that there are any number of examples to support both
of those claims.
\_ Because you don't *know* which claims are true or
false and to what degree so dismissing all of them
and then being openly hostile and aggressive towards
those who believe there might be something to it is
no better than the people who blindly accept all of
it as literal truth and push it on you.
\_ Of course we know which claims are false, assuming
you believe in fact-based reality. Earth is 10,000
years old? Obviously false. Noah's ark? Totally
impossible nonsense. A star falling into the
ocean? Can't happen either.
\_ I hate it when politicians make policy decisions based on
a book that was first probably oral tradition, who knows
who the heck came up with it, then written in Aramaic, then
some parts in Greek, throw some Hebrew and Latin in,
and along we come along and translate it into the King's
English, and then dumbasses say "IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE,
SO IT IS WRITTEN".
\_ I wouldn't out right dismiss all of it
but I wouldn't blindly accept it either
which is all I'm saying about the bible.
\_ [ this was originally in response to something totally
different. it'd be nice if people were more careful
with their edits ]
\_ Exactly. This is why now is not the right time to be a "just
leave them be" atheist. People are electing leaders not on the
basis of qualifications, but because of their fanatastical
beliefs. Our nation is unwilling to find Muslim ethics wanting
because they're based on faith and holy books. It's impossible
to have factual, logical, intelligent debates about many topics
related to medical ethics because of religious assertions that
CANNOT be refuted with fact, because fact is irrelevant to the
discussion. These are serious problems with being a "they're
not hurting anyone with their beliefs" atheist.
\_ People have always elected leaders, in part, based on their
religion. They said Kennedy would never get elected because
he was Catholic. Yet... somehow he did. Have more _faith_
in people (heh). And careful siding too closely with so
called medical ethics professionals. Some of them have
made some really outlandish statements by anyone's measure.
\_ Who said I was siding with "ethics professionals" I said
we couldn't have intelligent debate because it's FORBIDDEN
to question blind faith! You can argue logical points in
a scientific manner, and perform tests to aquire better
supporting facts, but in a culture where "my religion says
X" completely ends all possibility of debate, something is
WRONG.
\_ Study is flawed. The patients didn't pray hard enough. -jesus
\_ "Do not tempt the Lord your God" .. split into 3 groups?
\_ "Do not tempt God" .. split into 3 groups?
\_ "Do not tempt Yahweh" .. split into 3 groups?
sounds unauthentic
\_ Huh?
\_ Where does it say that?
\_ Matthew 4:7 "you shall not test the Lord your God"
\_ Matthew 4:7 "you shall not test God"
\_ Why the frack not?
\_ God does answers prayers. Sometimes the answer is no. A chant
\_ Matthew 4:7 "you shall not test Yahweh"
\_ Yahweh does answers prayers. Sometimes the answer is no. A chant
leading to a result is magic, not Christianity.
\_ No he doesn't. What do you base that on? Give me one example
of a prayer having been answered.
\_ All my life I have been an athiest, but a few years ago I
got so tired of shitting in the stall next to this really
annoying guy I used to work with that I started to pray to
the shit gods that he not have to shit at the same time as I
did. Well, he stopped shitting at the same time and my
prayers were answered. So now I believe in the shit god.
\_ My cs170 final, for starters....
\_ As long as there are exams, prayer in schools will never
be eradicated.
\_ I've had prayers clearly answered. Sometimes the answer was
no. Sometimes the answer has what I expected, and sometimes
wasn't. It very much depends on the individual and the
circumstances. Which is why it could never be reliably
studied by the scientific method IMO. -emarkp
\_ "Sometimes, when I cross myself before I take a free
throw, my prayer is answered and I make it. Sometimes
the answer is no and I miss it. Sometimes I miss it
but get the rebound and get two points. It very much
depends on the individual and the circumstances."
Complete cop-out. If there is any real effect to
prayer, that effect is measurable by scientific
methods. -tom
\_ I'm glad you have so much faith in the scientific
method. I don't a tool to this level of worship
however. If a phenomenon is inherently subjective, it
can't be tested by science, which doesn't make it false,
it simply can't be admitted into scientific theory.
\_ If prayers can be answered, the phenomenon is not
"inherently subjective." What is subjective is
someone's *belief* that their prayer was answered.
It is certainly the case that people believe
all kinds of stuff with no evidence other than
their own subjective feelings. -tom
\_ You seem to think "answering prayer" means
"granting a request". It doesn't. -emarkp
\_ You seem to think that what goes on inside
your head when you pray has some relation
to external reality. It doesn't. -tom
\_ Thoughts have no relation to external
reality? That's a pretty impressive
assertion tom. -emarkp
\_ Why? Is there some difficulty with
asserting that, and if so what?
\_ Well, there is that whole
observer problem.
\_ Alright, I suppose it is a poor
way to phrase it. Nevertheless, in
context we are talking about
assigning religious meaning to
someone's thoughts. This starts to
smack of schizophrenia.
\_ Where'd you get your license to
practice psychiatry? Do you even
know what schizophrenia is?
\_ Yes. But if it makes you feel
better, substitute "psychosis"
so we don't have to argue the
details.
\_ No you haven't. You've prayed for something, and it
happened, or it didn't. It would have happened regardless.
\_ With all due respect (i.e. none) I'm a better authority
on my own experience than you are. -emarkp
\_ No, you're not. Because you filter everything that
you experience through your warped sense of reality.
I bet you consider feelings experienced in your mind
as divine contact.
\_ Why is "my" sense of reality warped Mr. Anonymous
Troll? -emarkp
\_ Is Jesus your Friend?
\_ That's my judgement of those who do what I say
in my last sentence.
\_ Judge not lest ye be judged! (heh, sorry,
someone had to say it).
\_ Everyone's sense of reality is warped. No one
experiences the world as it really is b/c the
brain/mind is constantly filtering and inter-
preting the inputs from our senses and trying
to form predictive patterns.
If you have all these notions of external
powers stuck in your head, you end up using
those notions to evaluate your experiences,
rather than assessing them objectively.
In the end, it is all just a bunch of neuro-
transmitters flowing between neurons.
The real trick is to try praying for something that
really couldn't happen without a prayer. You'll find those
will never ever be "answered".
Well, I guess one area where religious people get points
is with other religious people. For example, being
religious is a prerequisite to get with some religious
girls. So, if you really like a religious girl and
pray and stuff then there's a much better chance of
getting with her than if you didn't. That much is
probably scientifically provable :)
\_ An effect indistinguishable from random chance either:
a) doesn't exist
b) is irrelevant
Which is it?
\_ what part of do "not test the Lord" do you not understand?
\_ The part where "the Lord" exists, maybe?
\_ what part of do "not test God" do you not understand?
\_ The part where "God" exists, maybe?
\_ what part of do "not test Yahweh" do you not understand?
\_ The part where "Yahweh" exists, maybe?
\_ I understand cop-outs perfectly well. In fact, that's
the same cop-out psychics use. -tom
\_ Have you ever read The Men Who Stare at Goats?
\_ It's still indistinguishable from the case where there
is no God and no prayers being answered. You can call
is no Yahweh and no prayers being answered. You can call
that a test if you want. -!pp
\_ Actually, it probably means that God's install of Spam Assassin
\_ Actually, it probably means that Yahweh's install of Spam Assassin
is working (given he's had billions of yrs, or at least 6K yrs,
to train it, I'm not surprised).
Of course, this presupposes that the Universe is real and
separate from God.
Of course, this presupposes that the Universe is real and separate
from God.
from Yahweh.
\_ Thank you, Bishop Berkeley.
\_ How Jesus taught us to pray:
Our Father in Heaven, Hallowed be thy Name
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done,
on earth, as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debters
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever.
Amen.
\_ Prayers are not just the asking of things. A prayer is a dialogue
with the Lord, through which we build a closer relationship with
him. It could be like a child talking to her father, or a friend
talking to a friend. God listens to the righteous, and reveals
talking to a friend. Yahweh listens to the righteous, and reveals
himself to those who seek him. He hears those who cry out to him.
"Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him,
"Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a
miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of
the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three
nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Some relevant verses:
Matthew 12:38-42
Matthew 13:58
Isaiah 58:9 (read the whole of 58)
\_ This debate is not about prayer-as-conversation. It is directly
about the much vaunted "power of prayer" to DO things. Talking
to a parent does not effect physical change unless the parent
DOES something. If they DO, it's measurable. Look, either God
DOES something. If they DO, it's measurable. Look, either Yahweh
can be cajoled into doing things or He can't. If He can't, then
everything happens according to His Plan and there is no free
will. If he can, then prayer is certainly making a request, no
matter how many "be it your will..." and "if it pleases you..."
clauses you add to your request.
\_ Essentially, what you want is to be shown a miracle. And
I've already pointed out above as to why you won't see one.
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean prayers aren't
answered.
\_ Which is why, again? Can you articulate it in simple terms?
(Also, isn't it noteworthy that in the Bible, first God and
(Also, isn't it noteworthy that in the Bible, first Yahweh and
then Jesus gains followers by the use of direct miracles?
c.f. Jesus walking on water blah blah resurrecting, c.f.
burning bushes and clouds and booming heavenly voices.
\_ You know about the miracles, so why are you asking
for more? God is sovereign. He is not obligated to
\_ The point is I know what miracles it SAYS happened,
and by the Bible's own internal logic it's reasonable
to expect some sort of proof, but I don't actually
have any personal evidence nor do I believe the
unsubstantiated reports in the Bible.
\_ If you want personal evidence, why don't you
start praying and seeking him then.
\_ If you want personal evidence, you can start
praying and seeking him.
\_ So in your world, you have to first believe
in it before you can get evidence for it.
No, that is insane. And I've never talked to
anyone who actually had personal evidence.
Why don't you describe yours hmm?
\_ Praying and seeking doesn't mean belief.
If you want witnesses, there are plenty
of books and video documentaries with
testimonies, or you can find a church.
Another way would be to follow Isaiah 58,
and do what is righteous, or follow
what Jesus teaches.
for more? Yahweh is sovereign. He is not obligated to
perform any miracle, or 5 miracles per century. He
is not obligated to perform any miracle to prove his
existence to you. And what seperates us from him is
our sin; it is not the lack of or abundance of miracles.
The people who saw Jesus performed miracles, also nailed
him to the cross.
p.s. Read the book of Esther. Did God perform any
p.s. Read the book of Esther. Did Yahweh perform any
miracles in the events in Esther?
\_ The point is I know what miracles it SAYS happened,
and by the Bible's own internal logic it's reasonable
to expect some sort of proof, but I don't actually
have any personal evidence nor do I believe the
unsubstantiated reports in the Bible.
\_ If you want personal evidence, you can start
praying and seeking him.
\_ So in your world, you have to first believe
in it before you can get evidence for it.
No, that is insane. And I've never talked to
anyone who actually had personal evidence.
Why don't you describe yours hmm?
\_ Praying and seeking doesn't mean belief.
If you want witnesses, there are plenty
of books and video documentaries with
testimonies, or you can find a church.
Another way would be to follow Isaiah 58,
and do what is righteous, or follow
what Jesus teaches.
\_ Praying is communicating with something
I believe doesn't exist and doesn't
answer... I call that insanity.
The testimonies are worthless for
one reason or another (name one and
I'll tell you why). You also haven't
answered my last question.
\_ Try the other way then - i.e. Doing
what is righteous. That's the
harder way, but it leads to a
stronger faith.
\_ But that's the point. Determining
what is righteous is something
we can discuss rationally.
(and besides, nobody agrees on
what the religions really say
is righteous.)
Baseless faith is dumb. I have
a certain faith in family and
friends because I know them from
past experience. I also have a
more limited faith in other
fellow humans, based on my
dealings with them in general.
I have no faith in Yahweh.
\_ Yes, we have faith in
God for we experienced him,
and he is faithful, and
good, and just, and his love
endures.
\_ If you "experienced" Yahweh,
then you don't need faith.
Which is it? (and, what was
the nature of this experience?
the nature of this
experience?
\_ When you say you have
faith in someone, what
does it mean?
\_ It is belief; belief
that they can be relied
on in certain ways. In
the case of Yahweh, I
guess it is about belief
that what is said about
him is true (bible), but
mainly for me the truth
"how he is" is pretty
much irrelevant, what
guess it is about
belief that what is
said about him is true
(bible), but mainly for
me the truth "how he
is" is pretty much
irrelevant, what
matters is if he exists
in the first place. If
you "experienced" him
then you must not have
such doubts, non?
why are you averse to my _/
calling it that? It helps to
distinguish the Judeo-Christian
God from other possible
conceptions, which may be
far more interesting.
\_ Yes, we have faith in
God for we experienced him,
and he is faithful, and
good, and just, and his love
endures.
endures forever.
\_ feel free to use Yahweh,
just don't change God
to Yahweh for what other
people wrote. Someone
was doing that.
\_ YASHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUA!
\_ I find your lack of faith disturbing. -dvader
\_ "The force bugs are strong within him". |
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