3/28    "This nonsense of 'jobs Americans won't do' is an age-old lie that's
        been around as long as the republic. Prior to the illegal alien
        problem, the same excuse was applied to the perpetuation of slavery.
        Georgia Representative James Jackson rose in opposition to a Quaker
        petition to end slavery in 1790 by fuming 'that rice cannot be brought
        to market without these people [slaves].'  William Loughton Smith added
        that slavery was an economic precondition for prosperity of his
        constituents, as author Joseph Ellis noted in his book, Founding
        Brothers . 'Such is the state of agriculture,' Smith said, 'that no
        white man would perform the tasks.' "
        http://www.philvalentine.com/IllegalAlienMyth.htm
        \_ this is stupid.  everyone knows 'jobs Americans won't do' means
           'jobs Americans won't do at the current wages'.  There will be
           people willing to do almost anything if the price is high enough.
           \_ And yet that keeps getting dropped in conversation.  And people
              keep acting as if "Americans" won't do the jobs under any
              circumstance.
              \_ yea, but the question is "why pay a higher wage when
                 someone is willing to do it at a lower wage?".  It's
                 laws vs economics.  The biggest loser?  Probably black
                 males whose plight has been deteriorating even during
                 the prosperous 90s.  Unemployment isn't high for other
                 ethnic and gender groups.  If you didn't graduate from
                 high school, yes, your livelihood would likely be
                 affected by the many illegal aliens, but otherwise,
                 you likley won't be affected and may even benefit from a
                 cost standpoint.
                 \_ This post seems like a non sequitur to me. The point
                    is that the employment at the lower wages is illegal,
                    and talking about "jobs Americans won't do" implies
                    all sorts of things which is why people say that. I've
                    seen it raised on the motd, as in "how are you gonna
                    get fresh produce???!11/??"
                    \_ yea, and slavery was legal, so please explain
                       how the comparison with slavery makes sense.
                       \_ slavery was an abomination and is now outlawed
                          everywhere in the world but places you'd never set
                          foot in.  what does the legal status of slavery in
                          this country 150+ years ago in _some_ states have to
                          do with whether or not slavery is ok or the price of
                          berry picking or anything else today?
                          \_ exactly, thus the quote op posted is stupid.
        \_ So the point is 'Jobs American's won't do (for how little we want
            to pay )'.  However, if the employery were to offer to pay what
            it would take to get Americans to work them, would those jobs
            still exist?
            \_ If they need to exist. Some would and some would not. The
               net effect is more jobs for "Americans", although perhaps
               fewer jobs overall.
               \_ nah, it will further increase cost of doing business in
                  the US, and trigger more outsourcing, and moving of
                  factories and jobs overseas.
                  \_ You can't outsource most of these kinds of jobs or
                     that would've already been done. These people are
                     maids, day laborers, farm hands, and the like. Some
                     businesses will fold because of the increased cost of
                     doing business and some won't. Mostly, I think it
                     will be the same amount of $$$ spread out across
                     fewer employees in aggregate.
                     \_ I don't know.  The janitorial and cafeteria
                        people at my company are all hispanics.  So are
                        the people keeping the company's lawn looking good,
                        as are the movers, drivers, etc.  Cost of
                        doing business will increase as living costs
                        increase.  Nobody is talking about outsourcing
                        these jobs, but the rise in cost of doing
                        business.  As it is, we aren't having an
                        easy time competing with China and India.
                        \_ Well, someone above *did* write "trigger more
                           outsourcing" and "mov[e]... factories and jobs
                           overseas." I imagine the cafeteria staff at your
                           company is not comprised of illegal aliens.
                           Gardeners may be. I know that it costs a lot more to
                           have a gardener in places w/o a lot of illegals,
                           even in places where the cost of living is much
                           lower. So fewer people will have gardeners and the
                           gardeners that are hired will make more money, but
                           will probably be better gardeners. I know an
                           old-time tree trimmer and his company has been
                           driven to the brink of bankruptcy by competition
                           with illegal aliens who aren't arborists, but who
                           charge 1/3 the price for the work such as they
                           do it. The cost of doing business will increase,
                           but so will the average wage. More money will
                           stay in the USA, instead of being sent to family
                           abroad. Somehow Europe manages to stay competitive
                           despite higher wages and a higher standard of
                           living. Competing with China and India on price
                           alone is a recipe for disaster, anyway. Maybe
                           people wouldn't need to shop at Wal-Mart for
                           Chinese-made crap if they had more money in
                           their pockets.
                        \_ Yes, the costs will rise.  Or they won't.  And we'll
                           go on with life.
                           \_ life's pretty good as it is today.
                              \_ life was pretty good with slavery.
                                 \_ slaves did not come voluntarily.