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| 5/24 |
| 2006/3/15-17 [Computer/HW/IO] UID:42257 Activity:moderate |
3/15 I'm having some wrist/hand pain in my right hand. I'm right handed
and use the mouse with my right hand too. What mouse devices are
you all using to prevent injury? Doing anything else like stretching,
etc?
\_ If you tend to keep your hands all tensed up when using the
computer, it helps a lot to relax and go slower. It also helps
if you can use your left hand for the mouse sometimes -- it's
actually pretty easy to get used to. Don't remap the buttons.
\_ I had the same problem and this helped: http://tinyurl.com/cphra
kngharv
\_ IMPOSSIBLE. There is no correlation between repetitive tasks and
pain. williamc says he uses his right hand to jack off several
times a day but he has no penis or left arm pain. Proof:
http://csua.com/?entry=38806
http://csua.com/?entry=37970
"There's no proof that computer usage through standard
I/O devices causes RSI. People with real RSI are individuals
who have to deal with heavy manual labor like meat packers
or jackhammer operators. -willamc"
\_ I'll just ignore the infantile first comment, but that's right.
I'm glad you're catching on. Also, FYI, there is no correlation
between cell phone usage and brain tumors, or living close to
power lines causing cancers. I think the whole thing started
when someone commented that the mouse was the most RSI
inducing device ever invented, which obviously is highly
dubious. Since nobody ever directly refuted this with a
comprehensive epi study, the statement still holds. I've
been personally using computers for over twenty years with
various input devices. I type well over one hundred words
per minute, and I've never experienced any form of RSI. I
know dozens of people who are in IT who type up a storm
everyday, and they never experienced RSI. Just because you
have symptoms of RSI doesn't mean that the various components
of normal computer IO are causing it.Maybe you have weak fingers,
may you've got diabetes (in fact, there is a correlation between
diabetes and RSI), maybe it's all in your head, who knows, but
it certainly isn't daily typing on a keyboard. Hell, people
were using manual typewriters for decades, and there wasn't
an epidemic of RSI until relatively recently. Hell, people
used to wash clothes with their bare hands, and although they
probably got arthritis later in life they didn't complain about
RSI. So what's different now? Has the human race somehow
devolved into having really weak hand muscles that can't even
push a two ounce mouse around without getting neck cramps?
I don't know, maybe you folks just have bad posture, maybe
you're contorting your bodies in weird shapes while pushing
your mice around, maybe you're sitting upside down or have your
fingers in a pretzel, but the statistical data says that
MICE and KEYBOARDS do NOT cause RSI. If you have some sort of
problem with that, well, then maybe you also believe that
consuming tiger penises will increase your libido, and since
this is a free country, it is your right to believe that.
-williamc
\_ So are you left handed? Is that why you jackoff with your
right hand? How many times do you jackoff a day?
\_ Go fuck yourself.
\_ 20 years?!? Wuow! You must be a Critical Intel Asset!
\_ I could say the same thing about decades of typing until
I changed jobs. Something about my desk/kb/mouse/chair/etc
changed enough that my left arm felt like it was on fire.
After making some changes, things were ok for a while until
this last week, now my right hand is hurting. Maybe kb/mice
use in and of themselves don't cause damage but 'improper'
usage certainly can. Improper would be some combination of
poor posture, height, distance, typing style, and probably
a zillion other things. I'm certain that if I wasn't at
this desk or never had a computer job my hand wouldn't hurt
now. -op
\_ ergonomics. Good seat, good monitor position, good keyboard.
Does your company have someone who can help you with ergonomics?
\_ Yes, I've seen them several times. They're quite helpful and
willing to buy whatever. They have a number of things I've
tried but they're not doing it for me so I was wondering what
other people are using.
\_ a really good seat is important. Good keyboard is important.
Same with posture, the position of the monitor.
I got a new keyboard, wireless optical mouse.
I need to upgrade my chair.
Also, take a break once in a while. Seriously. This is
important.
I've also seen hand braces that some people use.
\_ it's time for dictation software!
\_ I'm right-handed. Years ago I had a sore right arm, so I switched
to using the mouse with my left hand. I've never switched back
since. It serves as little exercise for my under-used hand. It
doesn't bother my co-workers since my mouse is still a right-handed
mouse and I don't swap the left and right buttons. So all they have
to do is to move the mouse to the right of the keyboard when they
need to use my machine. |
| 5/24 |
|
| tinyurl.com/cphra -> www.3m.com/us/office/myworkspace/mos_ergo.jhtml Fact Sheet Our Ergonomic Optical Mouse is clinically proven to reduce muscle strain and discomfort associated with carpal tunnel syndrome and repetitive str ess injury. Its unique design places your mousing hand, wrist and arm in a more ergonomic position compared to a standard mouse. To avoid strain on your wrists, arms and hands, your keyboard and other i nput devices, such as a mouse or trackball, should be positioned within a comfortable distance of each other. The diagram below shows the optima l area for input devices. |
| csua.com/?entry=38806 entry=37970 \_ Tiger lets you remap the caps lock to the control key. entry=37970 html \_ Looks nice, but I would think your hands would get tired like tha t I would really prefer an input method where I could use most of my up per body for CAD work. The thing Tom Cruise used in "Minority Report" is more the direction I would like to see. It's a replacement for a mouse, the most stupid RSI inducing input device ever made. People with real R SI are individuals who have to deal with heavy manual labor like meat pa ckers or jackhammer operators. html There are no known conclusive studie s linking computer usage to either RSI or CTS. Other studies have shown that the percentage of people who develop any sort of RSI who are regula r computer operators was no different than the percentage of people who develop it in the general populace period, indicating that whatver it is , it's not the computer IO that's causing it it is, it's not the compute r IO that's causing it -williamc -williamc \_ Hmm. she ended up seeing a doctor, and then eventually an ergo consultant, and her injuries healed . And, uhm, no, my 5' 1" sister doesn't operate a jackhammer or any othe r heavy equipment, and she doesn't pack meat. She works at a computer al l day as a statistician for UCSF. It was directly caused by using an old and sticky Sun Type 3 keyboard in a cold room at a shitty desk with bad posture for too long hours at a time. RSI can have equal probability of occurence in general population and computer users, and computer use co uld still cause RSI. In fact, can any people who are knowledgeable about courtroom arguments enlighten me on how lawyers attempt to prove causat ion in courts? And she worked long hours on not ergonomic computer syste ms, but that may just be a coincidence, she's obviously lying about the heavy manual labor side jobs she must have been employed in! As I stated before, there are no conclusive epi studies that support CTS with the w orkplace in general, although there appear to be strong causal linkages to heavy manual labor. htm I'm highly skeptical that CTS is caused by co mputer IO. If it was you'd actually see a direct statistical correlation to computer usage and CTS or other ailments of the sort. For example, i t may be that people who are predisposed to computer use also have a nat ural resistance to developing CTS. Still though I think the broader poin t of the op is that typing doesn't cause it any more than doing whatever else people are likely to have to do to get by, which a lack of correla tion certainly is evidence of. You cannot conclude ANYTHING causal from correlative information alone, regardless of what that information might be. It may be that the frequencies are the same for computer users, typ ers, and the general populace, yet computer use causes CTS, and typing d oes not. In order to determine anything here you need to either force pe ople to use typewriters or computers (which decouples the hidden common causes involved), or use randomized experiments (which fakes the same ki nd of decoupling). The evidence may not point in the right direction and it certainly is not conclusive, but a demonstrated lack of correlation between typing for a living and CTS and increased risk of CTS certainly *IS* evidence that typing doesn't cause CTS anymore than average. Especi ally in the absense of any reasonable hypothosis about why people in tha t field would be unrepre- sentative and Especially since i'd predict tha t people in that field, if anything, should be more likely to get it and more likely to whine about it when they did. People who do have CTS may have gotten it regardless of computer IO or not. Think about it, the cu rrent generation of workers are involved with the least amount of manual labor in probably the history of mankind. Why then did our forebearers not complain constantly about CTS? If you don't think working on a farm during the turn of the 20th century required constant repetitive tasks, well, what can one say... Also, one would think CTS would be much more p revalent in the past before the advent of modern soft-touch keyboards. I n addition, writing in general is much harder on the hands. I get writer 's cramp, I've never gotten "typist" cramp, especially on a modern day c omputer keyboard. Admittedly, some of these keyboards are horrid to type on, and no doubt they would lead at least hand fatigue if used in the l ong term, but realistically, I think human beings are better designed in general to withstand impact than what comes out of typing on a typical modern day keyboard, even if you are typing at 100 WPM for an extended p eriod of time. Also, the average programmer probably types a lot less th an a legal secretary, and it's been stated a number of times that there is no correlation between developing CTS or IRS and the amount you type, which makes one wonder... That is, after using emacs for over 10 years I started having pains in my left pinky. The pain spread to my whole arm and I had to get physical therapy a few times. But the thing that reall y helped was using a Kinesis keyboard in which I have to use my thumb to press CTRL and ALT keys. From what you're saying, is there no differenc e between the quality of IO, one that requires more effort or more frequ ency on certain fingers? html Introduction to the TactaPad Movie This mo vie is a silent screen capture of a user interacting briefly with a few applications on Mac OS X It dem onstrates how the TactaPad is full y com patible with existing software. Advanced Interactions in TactaDraw 3:57 See how the features of the Tact aPad can improve the user interface for a drawing tool. This movie demon strates different interaction techniqu es which use both hands, either wo rking together on one task, or in par alle l on two related tasks. It als o shows how tactile feedback can be used t o augment the user experience . html by Brooke E Smith The Bogus Epidemic Everybody knows that using a compute r keyboard can cause repet itive stres s injuries. After all, we're being bombarded with stories in the popular press about the number of employe es who have become disabl ed from keybo ard work. We're constantly being told how to prevent "ergo nomic" ills th rough use of special chairs, key boards, and other device s And if it's t oo late for prevention, billboa rds for hand surgeons o ffer quickie cures for carpal tunnel syndrome and other so-called cumula tive trauma disord ers. However, before you pay o ff the next workman's compensation claim by a co mputer operator, or pur chase a wrist rest fo r your own use while keyboar ding, consider that sc ientific evidence li nking computers with carpal tu nnel syndrome or any other medical condit ion is strangely lacking. When doctors, ergonomists, attorneys, or anyon e else are asked to provide rel iable scientific evi dence that these co nditions are actually caused by c omputer use, they f ail to do so. For this reason, every single lawsuit b rought by a comput er operator claim ing damages based on keyboard use tha t has gone to tri al has ended up in a judgment for the defense. Moreover , cities such as Miami who have required their employees to prove that t heir injuries w ere caused by c omputer use in order to get workman's comp ensation payme nts have avoid ed paying out any taxpayer dollars on these claims. Absent the hype by p laintiff's lawyers, chiropractors, inventors of ergon omic devices, and others profiting from the repetitive stress injury epi dem ic, the essen tial facts about these conditions are as follows: 1 What is a "cumulativ e trauma disorder" or "repetitive stress injury"? Neither " cumulative t rauma disorder" ("CTD") nor "repetitive stress injur y" ("RS I") is a sp ecific medical condition. Some limit use of the term " CTD" t o conditio ns arising from obvious trauma or injury that occurs mor e tha n once, s uch as might be experienced by someone who sustained multi ple but separ ate injuries to his back from playing football on different occ asions o ver the years. In contrast, the term "RSI" is often applied to r epetiti ve activity which is not inherently harmful or inj... |
| csua.com/?entry=37970 html \_ Looks nice, but I would think your hands would get tired like that. I would really prefer an input method where I could use most of my upper body for CAD work. The thing Tom Cruise used in "Minority Report" is more the direction I would like to see. It's a replacement for a mouse, the most stupid RSI inducing input device ever made. People with real RSI are individuals who have to deal with heavy manual labor like meat packers or jackhammer operators. html There are no known conclusive studies linking computer usage to either RSI or CTS. Other studies have shown that the percentage of people who develop any sort of RSI who are regular computer operators was no different than the percentage of people who develop it in the general populace period, indicating that whatver it is, it's not the computer IO that's causing it it is, it's not the computer IO that's causing it -williamc -williamc \_ Hmm. she ended up seeing a doctor, and then eventually an ergo consultant, and her injuries healed. And, uhm, no, my 5' 1" sister doesn't operate a jackhammer or any other heavy equipment, and she doesn't pack meat. She works at a computer all day as a statistician for UCSF. It was directly caused by using an old and sticky Sun Type 3 keyboard in a cold room at a shitty desk with bad posture for too long hours at a time. RSI can have equal probability of occurence in general population and computer users, and computer use could still cause RSI. In fact, can any people who are knowledgeable about courtroom arguments enlighten me on how lawyers attempt to prove causation in courts? And she worked long hours on not ergonomic computer systems, but that may just be a coincidence, she's obviously lying about the heavy manual labor side jobs she must have been employed in! As I stated before, there are no conclusive epi studies that support CTS with the workplace in general, although there appear to be strong causal linkages to heavy manual labor. htm I'm highly skeptical that CTS is caused by computer IO. If it was you'd actually see a direct statistical correlation to computer usage and CTS or other ailments of the sort. For example, it may be that people who are predisposed to computer use also have a natural resistance to developing CTS. Still though I think the broader point of the op is that typing doesn't cause it any more than doing whatever else people are likely to have to do to get by, which a lack of correlation certainly is evidence of. You cannot conclude ANYTHING causal from correlative information alone, regardless of what that information might be. It may be that the frequencies are the same for computer users, typers, and the general populace, yet computer use causes CTS, and typing does not. In order to determine anything here you need to either force people to use typewriters or computers (which decouples the hidden common causes involved), or use randomized experiments (which fakes the same kind of decoupling). The evidence may not point in the right direction and it certainly is not conclusive, but a demonstrated lack of correlation between typing for a living and CTS and increased risk of CTS certainly *IS* evidence that typing doesn't cause CTS anymore than average. Especially in the absense of any reasonable hypothosis about why people in that field would be unrepre- sentative and Especially since i'd predict that people in that field, if anything, should be more likely to get it and more likely to whine about it when they did. People who do have CTS may have gotten it regardless of computer IO or not. Think about it, the current generation of workers are involved with the least amount of manual labor in probably the history of mankind. Why then did our forebearers not complain constantly about CTS? If you don't think working on a farm during the turn of the 20th century required constant repetitive tasks, well, what can one say... Also, one would think CTS would be much more prevalent in the past before the advent of modern soft-touch keyboards. In addition, writing in general is much harder on the hands. I get writer's cramp, I've never gotten "typist" cramp, especially on a modern day computer keyboard. Admittedly, some of these keyboards are horrid to type on, and no doubt they would lead at least hand fatigue if used in the long term, but realistically, I think human beings are better designed in general to withstand impact than what comes out of typing on a typical modern day keyboard, even if you are typing at 100 WPM for an extended period of time. Also, the average programmer probably types a lot less than a legal secretary, and it's been stated a number of times that there is no correlation between developing CTS or IRS and the amount you type, which makes one wonder... That is, after using emacs for over 10 years I started having pains in my left pinky. The pain spread to my whole arm and I had to get physical therapy a few times. But the thing that really helped was using a Kinesis keyboard in which I have to use my thumb to press CTRL and ALT keys. From what you're saying, is there no difference between the quality of IO, one that requires more effort or more frequency on certain fingers? html Introduction to the TactaPad Movie This movie is a silent screen capture of a user interacting briefly with a few applications on Mac OS X It dem onstrates how the TactaPad is full y compatible with existing software. Advanced Interactions in TactaDraw 3:57 See how the features of the Tact aPad can improve the user interface for a drawing tool. This movie demon strates different interaction techniques which use both hands, either wo rking together on one task, or in paralle l on two related tasks. It als o shows how tactile feedback can be used t o augment the user experience . html by Brooke E Smith The Bogus Epidemic Everybody knows that using a compute r keyboard can cause repetitive stres s injuries. After all, we're being bombarded with stories in the popular press about the number of employe es who have become disabled from keybo ard work. We're constantly being told how to prevent "ergonomic" ills th rough use of special chairs, key boards, and other devices. And if it's t oo late for prevention, billboa rds for hand surgeons offer quickie cures for carpal tunnel syndrome and other so-called cumulative trauma disord ers. However, before you pay o ff the next workman's compensation claim by a co mputer operator, or pur chase a wrist rest for your own use while keyboar ding, consider that sc ientific evidence linking computers with carpal tu nnel syndrome or any other medical condition is strangely lacking. When doctors, ergonomists, attorneys, or anyone else are asked to provide rel iable scientific evi dence that these conditions are actually caused by c omputer use, they f ail to do so. For this reason, every single lawsuit b rought by a comput er operator claiming damages based on keyboard use tha t has gone to tri al has ended up in a judgment for the defense. Moreover , cities such as Miami who have required their employees to prove that t heir injuries w ere caused by computer use in order to get workman's comp ensation payme nts have avoided paying out any taxpayer dollars on these claims. Absent the hype by plaintiff's lawyers, chiropractors, inventors of ergon omic devices, and others profiting from the repetitive stress injury epi dem ic, the essential facts about these conditions are as follows: 1 What is a "cumulative trauma disorder" or "repetitive stress injury"? Neither " cumulative trauma disorder" ("CTD") nor "repetitive stress injur y" ("RS I") is a specific medical condition. Some limit use of the term " CTD" t o conditions arising from obvious trauma or injury that occurs mor e tha n once, such as might be experienced by someone who sustained multi ple but separate injuries to his back from playing football on different occ asions over the years. In contrast, the term "RSI" is often applied to r epetitive activity which is not inherently harmful or injurious, but whi ch is alleged to become so due to the sheer number of repetitions or the presence of other circumstances which "stress" the body. ... |