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| 5/24 |
| 2006/3/13-16 [Reference/Religion] UID:42221 Activity:high |
3/13 The scripture says: "Resist not evil: but whosever shall smite thee on
thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
So after 9/11, shouldn't we have fueled up some planes in SFO and
invited some Al Qaeda types aboard? Instead of attacking Afghans?
\_ No, no. You're interpreting the Bible incorrectly.
\_ Some Christians would agree with you. I would say that while I have
a right to make that decision for myself, I don't for others. Hence
there is no conflict between saying, "I personally forgive you your
transgressions against me" while simultaneously upholding the law,
or pursuing a war. -emarkp
\_ What a cop-out. "I believe in doing this personally, but
supporting government and social actions that are the opposite"
\_ No, emarkp is right. I am only in a position to forgive if
I am the person injured. I am not in a position to forgive
for the sake of the 9/11 victims and their family. For
the victims, we seek justice. Now, does invading Afghanistan
in attempt to capture or kill Osama bin Laden and other Al
Queda members the right way for justice, that is another
question.
the victims, we should seek justice. - christian socialist
\_ This implies that seeking "justice" is the default course
and doing nothing (which is in action the same as offering
forgiveness) is the alternative course of action.
\_ If someone is murdered, raped, etc., yes, society
should seek justice for the person. That's why we have
laws and the police force. Yes, justice should be
the default cause of action. And yes, sometimes
justice fails to be done, or is difficult to do.
- christian socialist
\_ You're confusing justice with a combination of
vengeance and sensible prevention.
\_ I think I have given my (or rather emarkp's)
answer to the question of "turning the other
cheek". I have no interest in arguing with you.
- christian socialist
\_ In regard to the wars, I supported the one in
Afghanistan, grudgingly, but did not like the
invasion of Iraq at all.
- christian socialist
\_ Why should we have secular laws and police? God sorts
out the good and evil, and provides for the good.
\_ No, God want us "loose the chains of injustice
\_ God wants us "loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke", "provide the
poor wanderer with shelter - when you see the
naked, to clothe him", "spend yourselves in behalf
of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the
oppressed". The parable of the Good Samaritan
also tells us that we cannot be apathetic.
also tells us that we must not be apathetic.
- christian socialist
\_ Is that reply in the right place? If so, your
quotes refer to personal deeds. It doesn't
follow that you need a police state to
do that stuff. Ask a libertarian.
\_ I disagree. The quotes tell us that
we have to actively fight against
injustice. Ensuring that our laws are
just and are properly enforced is part
of what we should do.
of that.
\_ Where? The "shelter" and "spend in
behalf of hungry" is philanthropy.
The other stuff is about not exploiting
workers and so forth. In any event none
of it requires setting up a police state
to force everyone to do this; the passages
tell you to do it personally. I find this
contradictory: you are the one claiming
that the "turn the other cheek" only
applies to yourself, and the nation can
justly behave opposite; yet here you
take these words and say they must be
enforced upon everyone.
\_ sorry, but I fail to see what
you are trying to argue about.
also, why do you keep bringing
up "police state"?
\_ heh, you disagreed last time.
this subthread is about the need
for secular laws and police to
enforce them. this is in response
to your claim that we should seek
justice against people who commit
crimes instead of forgiving them.
\_ Ok, but my beef was with
your use of your claim "God sorts
out the good and evil, ...."
as justification for not having
"secular" laws and police. I don't
see how one follows from the
other. And I think your claim
and your use of it as justification
showed that you misunderstood
the bible, which is what I was
pointing out with my Isaiah
quotes.
quotes. As for whether our
current laws and police force
can or should be thrown away,
my answer is "why?". Instead,
as Christians, we should make
sure they are just.
\_ Well, it's just that
"turn the other cheek" taken
far enough would obviate the
need for punishment of crime.
Also, OT quotes don't always
jibe with NT Jesusisms.
\_ If you want NT, there's the
Good Samaritan which I
mentioned above.
\_ The Koran had something similar. I don't know why Christians
automatically assumes that they got the monopoly on all the good
virtues while neither the Bible nor Koran can control those fanatics
who slaughters innocents in the name of God.
\_ I agree with you, except that I take issue with the claim that
turning the other cheek is a "virtue".
\_ Depends. Would you take a nation to war over some tiny
sleight? If not, why not? Isn't that turning the other
cheek? If someone scratched your car in a parking lot,
shouldn't you just kill them on the spot? Why not? If your
kid came home from schol crying shouldn't you find out why
and then kill whoever was responsible? Why not? Getting the
point now I hope?
\_ You realize you're an idiot, I hope?
\_ Ok, guess you didn't get the point. I'm sure ad hominen
makes you much smarter than me.
\_ Sometimes when someone says something really
dumb, there's no point in responding other than
to point it out.
\_ more ad hominen. thanks.
\_ ad hominem. Are you sure you even know
what the term means?
\_ [ > 80 column comment expurgated ]
\_the best you can do is a typo slam? whatever.
how about hitting me up for violating the 80\
columns rule too? Can I get you for starting a sentence with a lower case lette\
r? I note you don't deny my claim that your entire 'point' is just personal att\
ack and that you completely fail to address my point.
[80 col. please]
how about hitting me up for violating the 80\
columns rule too? Can I get you for starting a sentence with a lower case lette\
r? I note you don't deny my claim that your entire 'point' is just personal att\
ack and that you completely fail to address my point.
\_ Uhm, yeah, you missed a 'typo' up
above. And I'm not the some person
you've been arguing with previously.
\_ the best you can do is a typo slam? whatever.
how about hitting me up for violating the 80\
columns rule too? Can I get you for starting a sentence with a lower case lette\
r? I note you don't deny my claim that your entire 'point' is just personal att\
ack and that you completely fail to address my point.
[80 col. please]
how about hitting me up for violating the 80\
columns rule too? Can I get you for starting a sentence with a lower case lette\
r? I note you don't deny my claim that your entire 'point' is just personal att\
ack and that you completely fail to address my point.
\_ I'm not the same poster you've been
arguing with. I'm not 'slamming' you,
I'm offering a correction so you don't
look like an ignorant boob that doesn't
even know how to use a spell checker.
Whatever.
\_ Spell check on the motd? You're
kidding, right? What the hell for?
The motd is often amusing and
sometimes educational, but not worth
spell checking. "Whatever".
\_ Uhm, you do know that you can
spellcheck your changes in lieu of
the whole motd, yes? Wow, I'm
beginning to see why the other guy
resorted to using 'ad hominen' so
readily with you. You know what?
You win -- be an ignorant boob;
it's your prerogative. I'm done.
\_ 1) why would I bother? 2) thanks
for the laughs 3) get over it,
its the motd, anyone anal enough
to spell check their motd
entries... well I won't resort
to personal attack.
\_ Your "points" don't relate to this scripture. You are
saying "don't grossly overreact" but presumably, in your
theoretical system, a large offense will merit a large
response, which Jesus specifically decries. I don't think
there's anything morally interesting in the cases you
list.
\_ Presumably. Or not. You're presuming. I think Jesus
was saying "don't react to petty offenses because the
*other* guy is likely to grossly over react". By not
reacting at all you don't provide the other guy with
an excuse to over react and likely kill you which was
a likely outcome in more primitive times.
\_ Personally, I think it's less relevant what Jesus
really meant than the fact the "turning the other
cheek" has been used by the leaders of Christianity
to help enslave the masses for 2000 years.
\_ No. Fear of burning hellfire and not getting into
a gold paved heaven has kept the masses in check.
\_ Well you are the one trying to say it only applies
to "slight" offenses. You pull that from your ass.
There's nothing there from which to draw that
limitation. But you feel free to invent whatever
interpretation you want to justify whatever
is convenient for your world view.
\_ I expressed my opinion. You're entitled to
yours, whatever it might be since you didn't
bother to share it.
\_ I already did. I think it means what it says.
"Resist not evil." Where do you get this
about "petty offenses"?
\_ Most of the translations say, "Do not
resist an evil person." Some say, "Do
not resist an evil person [who injures
you]." Couple this with the context
(The next passage has "Love your
enemies and pray for those who persecute
you."), and one gets a more complete
picture. Simplifying to just "Resist
not evil" (which translation did you
get that from?) may mistakenly suggest
not to resist evil even as an abstract
concept or when it is done to others.
- christian socialist
\_ KJV Matthew 5:38
"Ye have heard that it hath been said,
an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a
tooth: But I say unto you, that ye
resist not evil: but whosoever shall
smite thee on thy right cheek, turn
to him the other also."
There's lots of great stuff in that
chapter that most Christians ignore.
I agree that the meaning of it is
"resist not evil [done to you]" as
opposed to, say, resisting doing evil.
\_ I think your interpretation is wrong. Emarkp's
interpretation is correct. - christian socialist
\_ You know for a fact what a guy who died 2000
years ago meant based on multiple translations
of books written after his death? Ok. you're
way smarter than me. I'm going to stick to what
I *think* he meant and not make flat out
statements of fact about what he meant. I'm glad
to know someone around here has this all worked
out as fact. Let the pope know.
\_ ah, interpretation relativism - any one
interpretation is as good as another.
If you read the whole context (5:38 - 5:42 or
the whole of 5), your interpretation don't make
sense. Also, Jesus almost always talk about
things that are fundamentally important,
whereas your interpretation is more of a
"technique". From "an eye for an eye" to
"turning the other cheek" is part of the
"from laws to grace and faith" message of
Jesus, which runs throughout the NT.
- christian socialist
\_ Relativism? No. It's ridiculous to come
here and say he *knows* not only what Jesus
_said_ but what Jesus *meant* as well.
\_ It's obvious what these words mean. I
think it's up to you to show some
reason to ascribe some different
meaning to them.
\_ Cf. the Hadith collected by Abu-Dawud: http://csua.org/u/f8v :
"When one of you becomes angry while standing, he should sit
down. If the anger leaves him, well and good; otherwise he
should lie down."
\_ In case you haven't noticed, most ppl are against the war in Iraq,
not Afghanistan...
\_ Pertinent question: are you a Xian looking for interpretation of
scripture, a non-Xian looking to understand why some Xians are for
war, or a non-Xian looking to criticize Xian support of the war?
\_ Why does that matter?
\_ Because if you're either the first or the second, this could
be an interesting thread, whereas if you're the last, this is
a waste of time.
\_ Let's say I'm 2.
\_ Then I would suggest that some Xians place more emphasis
on OT and/or the fiery evangelist portions of NT than
they do on the "Love thy neighbor" portions. It's a big
book, with justifications for everybody. |
| 5/24 |
|
| csua.org/u/f8v -> www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/041.sat.html#041.4764 Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 41: General Behavior (Kitab Al-Adab) Book 41, Number 4756: Narrated Anas ibn Malik: I served the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) at Medina for ten years. Every work that I did was not according to the desire of my master, but he never said to me: Fie, nor did he say to me: Why did you do this? Book 41, Number 4757: Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to sit with us in meetings and talk to us. When he stood up we also used to stand up and see him entering the house of one of his wives. One day he talked to us and we stood up as he stood up and we saw that an Arabi (a nomadic Arab) caught hold of him and gave his cloak a violent tug making his neck red. He turned to him and the Arabi said to him: Load these two camels of mine, for you do not give me anything from your property or from your father's property. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: No, I ask Allah's forgiveness; I shall not give you the camel-load until you make amends for the way in which you tugged at me. Each time the Arabi said to him: I swear by Allah, I shall not do so. He (the Prophet), then called a man and said to him: Load these two camels of his: one camel with barley and the other with dates. He then turned to us and said: Go on your way with the blessing of Allah. Book 41, Number 4758: Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Good way, dignified good bearing and moderation are the twenty-fifth part of Prophecy. Book 41, Number 4759: Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: if anyone suppresses anger when he is in a position to give vent to it, Allah, the Exalted, will call him on the Day of Resurrection over the heads of all creatures, and ask him to choose any of the bright and large eyed maidens he wishes. Book 41, Number 4760: Narrated Son of a Companion: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: He then mentioned a similar tradition described above. This version has: Allah will fill his heart with security and faith. This version further adds: He who gives up wearing beautiful garments when he is able to do so (out of humility, as Bishr's version has) will be clothed by Allah with the robe of honour, and he who marries for Allah's sake will be crowned by Allah with the crown of Kingdom. Book 41, Number 4762: Narrated Mu'adh ibn Jabal: Two men reviled each other in the presence of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and one of them became excessively angry so much so that I thought that his nose will break up on account of excess of anger. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: I know a phrase which, if he repeated, he could get rid of this angry feeling. He replied: He should say: I seek refuge in Thee from the accursed devil. Mu'adh then began to ask him to do so, but he refused and persisted in quarrelling, and began to enhance his anger. Book 41, Number 4764: Narrated AbuDharr: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to us: When one of you becomes angry while standing, he should sit down. Book 41, Number 4766: Narrated Atiyyah as-Sa'di: AbuWa'il al-Qass said: We entered upon Urwah ibn Muhammad ibn as-Sa'di. he then returned and performed ablution, and said: My father told me on the authority of my grandfather Atiyyah who reported the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: Anger comes from the devil, the devil was created of fire, and fire is extinguished only with water; so when one of you becomes angry, he should perform ablution. Book 41, Number 4770: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed of anything of a certain man, he would not say: What is the matter with so and so that he says? But he would say: What is the matter with the people that they say such and such? Book 41, Number 4771: Narrated Anas ibn Malik: A man who had the mark of yellowness on him came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). The apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) rarely mentioned anything of a man which he disliked before him. When he went out, he said: Would that you asked him to wash it from him. AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: The believer is simple and generous, but the profligate is deceitful and ignoble. Book 41, Number 4774: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: A man asked permission to see the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), and the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He is a bad member of the tribe. When he entered, the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) treated in a frank and friendly way and spoke to him. When he asked permission, you said: He is a bad member of the tribe, but when he entered, you treated him in a frank and friendly way. Allah does not like the one who is unseemly and lewd in his language. Book 41, Number 4776: Narrated Anas ibn Malik: I never said that when any man brought his mouth to the ear of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and he withdrew his head until the man himself withdrew his head, and I never saw that when any man took him by his hand and he withdrew his hand, until the man himself withdrew his hand. Book 41, Number 4780: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: By his good character a believer will attain the degree of one who prays during the night and fasts during the day. Book 41, Number 4781: Narrated AbudDarda': The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is nothing heavier than good character put in the scale of a believer on the Day of Resurrection. Book 41, Number 4782: Narrated AbuUmamah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: I guarantee a house in the surroundings of Paradise for a man who avoids quarrelling even if he were in the right, a house in the middle of Paradise for a man who avoids lying even if he were joking, and a house in the upper part of Paradise for a man who made his character good. Book 41, Number 4788: Narrated Abdullah ibn ash-Shikhkhir: I went with a deputation of Banu Amir to the apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and we said: You are our lord (sayyid). To this he replied: The lord is Allah, the Blessed and Exalted. Then we said: And the one of us most endowed with excellence and superiority. To this he replied: Say what you have to say, or part of what you have to say, and do not let the devil make you his agents. Book 41, Number 4790: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: Al-Miqdam ibn Shurayh, quoting his father, said: I asked Aisha about living in the desert. She said: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) used to go to the desert to these rivulets. Once he intended to go to the desert and he sent to me a she-camel from the camel of sadaqah which had not been used for riding so far. show gentleness, for if gentleness is found in anything, it beautifies it and when it is taken out from anything it damages it. Book 41, Number 4791: Narrated Jarir: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who is deprived of gentleness is deprived of good. Book 41, Number 4792: Narrated Sa'd: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is hesitation in everything except in the actions of the next world. Book 41, Number 4793: Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who does not thank Allah does not thank people. Book 41, Number 4794: Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Immigrants (Muhajirun) said: Apostle of Allah! He said: no, so long as you pray to Allah for them and praise them. Book 41, Number 4795: Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If someone is given something, he should give a return for it provided he can afford; He who praises him for it, thanks him, and he who conceals it is ungrateful to him. Book 41, Number 4796: Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If someone is donated something, and he mentions it, he thanks for it, and if he conceals it, he is ungrateful for it. Book 41, Number 4799: Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: the same occasion: Help the oppressed (sorrowful) and guide those who have lost their way. Book 41, Number 4800: Narrated Anas ibn Malik: A woman came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah: I ... |