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| 11/22 |
| 2006/3/11-13 [Science/GlobalWarming] UID:42189 Activity:moderate |
3/11 GE may have figured out a cheaper way of making H2:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/03/ge_cuts_hydroge.php
\_ I'm amazed the manufacturing of the aparatus has that much
effect on the cost to generate the hydrogen.
\_ Umm.. how much energy does 1kg of H have vs 1 gal of gasoline?
I would suspect the gasoline has much more.
\_ Answered my own question, H has a LOT more, like 5x.
http://tinyurl.com/qpmp6 (uaf.edu)
http://www.uaf.edu/energyin/webpage/pages/energy_storage/hydrogen.htm
\_ Weird, I googled for this and most of the info I got
suggested that 1kg H2 has about the same energy
content as gasoline:
1kg H2 energy content: 120-140kJ
1gallon gas energy content: 130kJ
1kg H2 energy content: 120-140MJ
1gallon gas energy content: 130MJ
\_ These should be MJ, not kJ.
(for both substances)
\_ Sorry, I ment to change
from k to M. Thanks for
catching this.
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/facts_figures.html
http://tinyurl.com/dtymn (phy.syr.edu)
http://www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html
\_ guys, both links are very clear: H2 has ~ 3x or higher
energy content vs. gasoline by weight, but in terms of
volume, it has issues
\_ this is why i don't believe in hydrogen economy. We
needs just bite the bullet and save gas bits by bits.
\_ Yeah, see, there's thingy some people call 'technology'.
By applying this, this, 'technology', people are often
able to solve problems in surprising ways....
\_ there is a thing call knowledge, which separate
fantacy from reality. If you want to get hydrogen
competitively TODAY, you can only obtain it from
natural gas, coal, or other form of fussel fuel.
Rest of these things are as interesting as human
cloning: vast potential, but far far away down the
road.
\_ great sustainable plan you got there.
\_ Funny, this is the reason H looks good to me. If
they can really produce it for $3 a kilo, it will
eventually be cheaper than gas. I'm curious about
the cost breakdown though. What electricity cost
are they assuming, etc?
\_ If you assume the above numbers, corrected to MJ
instead of kJ, and convert to kWH, then divide into
three dollars, you get 8.3 cents per kWH.
\_ Why would you compare energy/mass to energy/weight? How is
that meaningful?
\_ The density of gas is ~ 0.73 g/ml, so gas has an energy
density of ~ 47 MJ/kg, which is about 3x smaller than H2.
\_ You can pour 1kg of gasoline into a bucket, and use it. You can't
do that with a 1kg of Hydrogen, which is the whole issue with
hydrogen. |
| 11/22 |
|
| www.treehugger.com/files/2006/03/ge_cuts_hydroge.php Finally comes an announcement that makes an old classic sound eprovisational enough to get our attention . Seems GE has gotten it's Ecoimagination chops after all. researchers at GE say they've come up with a prototype version of an easy-to-manufacture apparatus that they believe could lead to a commercial machine able to produce hydrogen via electrolysis for about $3 per kilogram -- a quantity roughly comparable to a gallon of gasoline -- down from today's $8 per kilogram. That could make it economically practical for future fuel-cell vehicles that run on hydrogen." The core problem in improving electrolyzers for hydrogen manufacture is not how to improve the fundamental conversion efficiency, says Richard Bourgeois, an electrolysis project leader at GE Global Research in Niskayuna, NY. Bourgeois' research team came up with a way to make future electrolyzers largely out of plastic. that is extremely resistant to the highly alkaline potassium hydroxide. And because the plastic is easy to form and join, manufacturing an electrolyzer is relatively cheap". A great many wonderful sounding inventions never make it past the lab bench and patent office simply because the all important manufacturing cost hurdle is never overcome. This sad truth serves as the rational for those who champion fossil fuels as the only legit option. Greenloop Comments I think this is a great step, but I believe that it Hydrogen will need to be significantly cheaper than fossil fuels before wide spread adaptation. They are still made of a metal coated with a nickel catalyst. Thank you for the correction: but please see below for further thoughts. I actually did read the article in total, but oversimplified when I wrote the headline after the post. This kind of oversimplification happens also when people refer to a "fuel cell" without differentiating the inner stack elements versus the enclosures, etc. This gets at the larger problem of writing a two or three paragraph post about a bit of unfamiliar but important technology. When the original post is well done, I'd prefer to excerpt the large bits of it that handle technical details, but would then be at increased risk of being accused of violating copyright. To avoid that hassle, I've been oversimplifying and sometimes urging that readers take the time to read the full story at the link. If anyone has some suggestions on how to handle these issues we'd certainly welcome your comments. |
| tinyurl.com/qpmp6 -> www.uaf.edu/energyin/webpage/pages/energy_storage/hydrogen.htm Return to Home Page It has been known since the early 19^th century that hydrogen could be a powerful energy currency . It has the potential to become the dominant way of storing energy, however the technology has yet to be developed to make it competitive with fossil fuels. Since hydrogen can't be "mined or extracted" like fossil fuels as it doesn't exist to any appreciable extent naturally on earth, a main future use will be as a vehicle for energy storage. It is currently being used in industrial processes, as a rocket fuel, and for spacecraft propulsion . In a fuel cell, hydrogen is combined with either pure oxygen or air to generate energy. Whether pure oxygen is or air used, the only significant by product is water. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe , comprising 90% of all matter . Hydrogen is also the simplest element, containing only one proton and one electron within its structure; for this reason it is thought to be the building block of all other elements . Since hydrogen needs to be pure to be useful as an energy storage mechanism, it must be separated from other elements. Currently two primary methods are being used and three other methods are being researched. If the electricity source is a renewable resource such as solar power, then this method is entirely renewable and environmentally friendly. Other methods in research are photoelectrolysis, biomass gasification, and production of hydrogen by algae . Hydrogen has the highest storage content of any fuel, 52,000 British Thermal Units (Btu) per pound. For comparison, fossil fuels average between 10,000 and 20,000 Btu per pound. In order for hydrogen to be a feasible carrier of energy, it must be stored in a way that greatly increases its density. they are: metal hydride tanks, high-pressure storage tanks, liquid hydrogen, chemically stored hydrogen, carbon nanotubes, glass microspheres, and liquid carrier storage . All of these methods are imperfect, most having problems related to economics and efficiency. Aside from all the obvious benefits of hydrogen storage, it has not become widespread because of its high cost with respect to fossil fuels. Using hydropower and electrolysis to create hydrogen during off-peak hours costs between $10 and $20 per million Btu . However, these rates dont include the high prices of storing hydrogen or of creating a widespread hydrogen infrastructure. Furthermore, hydrogen storage has a great potential in high latitude places such as Alaska. |
| www.uaf.edu/energyin/webpage/pages/energy_storage/hydrogen.htm Return to Home Page It has been known since the early 19^th century that hydrogen could be a powerful energy currency . It has the potential to become the dominant way of storing energy, however the technology has yet to be developed to make it competitive with fossil fuels. Since hydrogen can't be "mined or extracted" like fossil fuels as it doesn't exist to any appreciable extent naturally on earth, a main future use will be as a vehicle for energy storage. It is currently being used in industrial processes, as a rocket fuel, and for spacecraft propulsion . In a fuel cell, hydrogen is combined with either pure oxygen or air to generate energy. Whether pure oxygen is or air used, the only significant by product is water. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe , comprising 90% of all matter . Hydrogen is also the simplest element, containing only one proton and one electron within its structure; for this reason it is thought to be the building block of all other elements . Since hydrogen needs to be pure to be useful as an energy storage mechanism, it must be separated from other elements. Currently two primary methods are being used and three other methods are being researched. If the electricity source is a renewable resource such as solar power, then this method is entirely renewable and environmentally friendly. Other methods in research are photoelectrolysis, biomass gasification, and production of hydrogen by algae . Hydrogen has the highest storage content of any fuel, 52,000 British Thermal Units (Btu) per pound. For comparison, fossil fuels average between 10,000 and 20,000 Btu per pound. In order for hydrogen to be a feasible carrier of energy, it must be stored in a way that greatly increases its density. they are: metal hydride tanks, high-pressure storage tanks, liquid hydrogen, chemically stored hydrogen, carbon nanotubes, glass microspheres, and liquid carrier storage . All of these methods are imperfect, most having problems related to economics and efficiency. Aside from all the obvious benefits of hydrogen storage, it has not become widespread because of its high cost with respect to fossil fuels. Using hydropower and electrolysis to create hydrogen during off-peak hours costs between $10 and $20 per million Btu . However, these rates dont include the high prices of storing hydrogen or of creating a widespread hydrogen infrastructure. Furthermore, hydrogen storage has a great potential in high latitude places such as Alaska. |
| www.hydrogen.energy.gov/facts_figures.html Printable Version Hydrogen Facts & Figures The following resources provide information about the properties, production, storage, delivery, safety, and use of hydrogen. DOE Hydrogen Program Fact Sheets These easy-to-understand fact sheets are designed to introduce hydrogen and fuel cell technologies to non-technical audiences. The following documents are available as Adobe Acrobat PDFs. PDF 64 KB) Hydrogen Properties * Hydrogen readily combines with oxygen to form water, which is absolutely necessary for life on this planet. Hydrogen's volumetric energy density can be increased by storing the hydrogen under increased pressure or storing it at extremely low temperatures as a liquid. It also has a wide flammability range, meaning it can burn when it makes up 4 to 74 percent of the air by volume. When used as an energy carrier, 9 million tons of hydrogen could power 20-30 million cars or 5-8 million homes. For longer distances of up to 1,000 miles, hydrogen is usually transported as a liquid in super-insulated, cryogenic, over-the-road tankers, railcars, or barges, and then vaporized for use at the customer site. Hydrogen Use * Hydrogen is primarily used as a feedstock, intermediate chemical, or specialty chemical. |
| tinyurl.com/dtymn -> www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html Rough Values of Power of Various Processes (watts) Solar power in all directions 10^27 Solar power incident on earth 10^17 Solar power avg. If we multiply a unit of power by a unit of time, the result is a unit of energy. |
| www.phy.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_POLICY/tables.html Rough Values of Power of Various Processes (watts) Solar power in all directions 10^27 Solar power incident on earth 10^17 Solar power avg. If we multiply a unit of power by a unit of time, the result is a unit of energy. |