3/8 Any motd commentary on the ranting geography teacher?
http://csua.org/u/f63 (article)
link:csua.org/u/f64 (mp3 of rant)
\_ You posted it. What do *you* think about it?
\_ Fair enough. I don't have all the facts, but I understand
he's been complained about before, which I would assume
means he's been warned. I was originally somewhat
ambivalent about it. I've had ranting teachers before, no
biggie, but that rant is really over the top. Assuming he's
been warned before, I think, in a perfect world, he would be
fired for incompetence. However, this being the public
school system, he'll probably just be punished in some
vaugely passive-aggressive manner, like making him teach
math or something. -op
\_ Addendum: It seems he may have been complained about
before, but was never explicitly warned or diciplined, so
I'm downgrading my recommendation to "warning and a
slap-on-the-wrist." -jrleek
\_ There are a few moments that are over the top, but, overall,
not that ridiculous a rant. I don't quite follow your claim
that, because he rants, he is incompetent. Frankly, if he
did the same thing, and used it to foster an interactive
discussion with his students, he'd be a really great
teacher. Even as a rant, what he's saying is more thought
provoking and challenging than most of the pablum served up
in high school. This is a good thing, assuming you want high
school to teach kids solid critical analysis skills that are
a key tool needed to synthesize raw information into well
thought out and informed opinions. Contrariwise, this is
terrible if you want high school to pump out cogs suitable
for working dull 9-5 jobs in an industrial economy where
obedience is more important than ideas. BTW, why don't
most so-called conservatives on the motd sign their posts?
-dans
\_ Most people that post here, conservative or otherwise,
do so anonymously. -mice
\_ Good point. I suspect I've got some unfair selection
bias. -dans
\_ He's incompetent because he's not teaching anything,
he's just ranting. He is not using it foster any
discussion. How are they supposed to discuss it
while they're supposed to taking notes? What he's
saying is not even really "thought provoking" because
he gives no context or evidence for any of it. Some
of the questions he asks the students aren't even
really defineable. "What is the most violent country
in the world?" The kids dejectedly mutter "us,"
knowing the answer he wants. Assuming you could even
figure out what that question is supposed to mean,
don't you think Sudan, for example, might be a better
choice?
Anyway, he just jumps from subject to subject in a
disjointed rant that has nothing to do with the topic
of the class or teaching the kids anything but
"America is bad." He offers no evidence, and expects
no discussion becuase he mostly references topics that
no high school student can reasonably be expected to
know enough about to call him on his BS. Some of his
facts are even flat out wrong.
BTW: didn't think it was important, but, if you
prefer. -jrleek
\_ Who gives a shit? His rant isn't about geography, which
is what he's supposed to be teaching. I think the
content of an off-topic rant is less important than
the length. It seems to me that crazy digressions are
not relevant to the teacher's qualities as a teacher.
My highschool physics teacher went off on some pretty
crazy stuff about conspiracies and all the people he
thought should be executed and so on, but he was still
a great physics teacher because he was *usually*
talking about physics, and we all learned the material
(as proven by superior AP exam scores). If anything, I'd
say my highschool physics teacher's rants helped us pay
attention to the physics because you never knew when
something whacky was coming. Of course in today's
neo-fascist school environment, he'd probably end up
fired for the stuff he said about politics and we'd
end up with the moron creationist chem teacher teaching
us instead.
\_ Reasonable point, although I was responding
specifically dans' statement. In this case, the
rant seems to have been about 20 minutes, at my
high school that would be approx. 1/2 a class
period. The kid claimed he does this
frequently.
"Neo-fascist school environment?" You haven't
been around a high school in a while, huh? I
can pretty much guarantee you, nothing has
changed. (At least since I was in school)
-jrleek
\_ What year did you graduate high school?
\_ You first, anonymous man. -jrleek
\_ 1994.
\_ 1998.
\_ Uh...ok, so both pre-Columbine and
pre-911. I call bullshit that
nothing's changed. Do you have
a younger sibling in high school
or something? Where's your
circumstantial evidence that
nothing's changed?
\_ Yes, my little sister just
graduated from the same
school I did. That's pretty
much all the evidence though.
Many of my firends were still
there for when Columbine
happened too. Admittedly,
you're now more likely to get
in trouble for threatening to
shoot people at school, but I
wouldn't exactly call that
"fascist."
\_ WRT the ``what is the most violent country in the world
question,'' I agree that it could be phrased better.
If you want to talk internally violent, then yes,
Sudan definitely is up there, though the US' homicide
rate is, to my knowledge, the highest among developed
countries. If you want to talk about externally
violent, then you can make a strong argument for the
US. Is Sudan on the warpath? Is it attacking its
neighbors? To my knowledge, no. If Sudan got angry
at, say, France, would it be a threat? Probably not.
The US is one of the few countries in the world with
global reach, and, in light of Russia's decline,
possibly the only country with an arsenal capable of
literally wiping countries off the map or destroying
the world with the push of a button (MAD was a real
part of political policy making in the cold war).
\_ Wow...just...wow.
On a technical note about the `dejected'
response, I think that's a reasonable interpretation of
the response, but not the only one. This was likely
recorded with an inexpensive omni microphone, thus when
one speaker projects from the front of the room, it is
much clearer than when many speakers talk from all
directions at once. In my experience, getting *any*
response from a class room of high school experience is
hard to do. Then again, maybe I just suck as a
teacher. :) One also must realize that not all
learning or discussion happens in the classroom. Push
students buttons enough in the classroom, and they'll
argue and discuss material outside of the classroom.
If this is the teacher's strategy, he's executing it
poorly, but, in the right hands, it can be a very
powerful technique.
On the evidence side of things, I agree
that his discussision of capitalism was one of the
over the top moments where he doesn't justify his
statements. On the other hand, most of his statements
about US dealings in Latin America are factual and, to
my knowledge, accurate (cf economics of coca). I don't
like the idea that high school students are too dumb or
too ignorant to go toe to toe with a teacher that
raises obscure facts. When my teachers did this, I
took it as a challenge and I learned from it. IMO,
when you raise the bar for the brightest students, it
lifts everyone up, and when you cater to the lowest
common denominator students, it pushes everyone down.
BTW, thanks for signing. Nice to know who
I'm arguing with. FYI, I gradugated in '97 -dans
Thanks for signing your name, it's good to know who I'm
arguing with. -dans (graduated highschool in 1997)
\_ Sudan is also supporting militias attacking
Chad. And, your point is that he's
incompetent? agreed. -jrleek
\_ US: EVIL, ANTI-US: GOOD!
\_ If American public schools don't teach
students that dissent and critical
questioning of our leaders is a patriotic duty
and a key ingredient in a healthy democratic
society, who will? Maybe your joking, but if
you're serious, your vast oversimplification
suggests that your school did a poor job of
teaching you those vital critical analysis
skills. -dans
\_ Um, maybe PARENTS should teach their
kids this sort of thing?
Maybe schools should concentrate on
teaching kids the basics of things
like math, science, grammar, &c.
\_ Schools need to teach students things
like critical reasoning; furthermore,
a high school teaches civics, which is
supposed to be sort of an "owner's
manual" for a democratic republic.
This does include "dissent". But
not in geography class. -John
\_ Well, that depends whether you think
geography is just map reading
skills and memorizing place names.
That's a reasonable approach to the
field if you're teaching
kindergarteners. The actual field is
more interesting, complex, and
subtle. It encompasses geopolitics,
and is a reasonable venue for
discussion of the how the US
interacts with the word. It's not
really a leap from that discussion to
civics and decent. -dans
\_ In the context of the subject. If
the guy's gonna rant about
politics, whatever they are (which
he is) it belongs in a civics
class. -John
\_ I disagree. I think the main
problem w/ US education is that
it focuses too much on what the
student feels, &c. instead of
devoting time to the essentials
like math, science, languages,
&c. While dissent and discussion
can be useful, the place for
this is HS debate team.
\_ Okay, so are Sudan's incursions into Chad
equivalent to the US invasion of Iraq? I could
see how one might argue that, morally, the answer
is yes. But I think once you bring the question
of degree and scope into it, I don't think the
comparison holds water. The US toppled the
government of Iraq in, literally, weeks. How
long have Sudanese incursions into Chad been
taking place? Are they having a substantial
impact on the nation of Chad as a whole? Could
Sudan wage an effective war on another country on
the other side of the globe? Does Sudan have
chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons that
could literally obliterate a country? I am in
no way asserting that the US' actions are
equivalent to Sudan's, but I do think that the US
is orders of magnitude more powerful than Sudan,
and thus, we must hold it to a significantly
higher standard. Most of the time US citizens do
hold our nation to a higher standard, and our
government behaves accordingly. There are,
however, exceptions, such as our incursions into
Latin America. Many actions by the current
administration also fall below the necessary
standard. And no, my point is not that he's
incompetent. I think some of the points you
raised are valid, and are areas for improvement.
I think it's a pretty considerable leap from the
points you raised to the assertion that he's
incompetent. You seem to view this as a very
binary matter. -dans
\_ I had avoided listening to this rant for a few days now, but
I listened to parts of it just for you. The way I understand
it, it sounds like he was talking during class rather than
during lunch or after-school or something.
If he said this during lunchtime or after-school (ie when
the students were free to come and go from class), I think
that his spiel was perfectly okay.
But, during class I think this isn't okay for at least
the following two reasons:
1. His job is teaching Geography not Geo-politics. His
blathering doesn't teach kids anything useful about
geography, such as how to read things like elevation,
distance, water currents, &c. on maps.
Arguably he doesn't even teach students reasonable
geo-politics. Many of these problems have no sol'n
that all sides can reasonably agree on.
\_ Um, have you ever taken a college level Geography class?
Geography *is* geopolitics. See:
http://geography.berkeley.edu/ProgramCourses/OpenLetter.html
-dans
\_ No I have not taken a college level geography
class. I was too busy taking real classes to
waste my time/money on nonsense classes like
geography, history, &c. This fluff stuff is
\_ In the words of some old, dead English guy, ``There
are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than
are dreamt of in your philosophy.'' Eh. It's all just
fluff stuff to you. You sir, are an idiot. -dans
\_ The fluff stuff, my friend, is "a tale told
by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying
nothing."
something one can learn on the side if one
has nothing more productive to do. I didn't
want to waste the precious time in school
on that type of drivel.
Regardless of this, whether or not I have
taken college level geography is irrelevant
to a discussion of High School geography.
Its like asking if I've taken o-chem, when
the conversation is about 9th grade bio.
HS geography is about trying to get 9th and
10th graders to locate different countries
on a map and hoping that they figure out
that Africa and Asia a different continents.
It is not about trying to give them the low
down on every regional war, &c.
\_ Were you actually that stupid in high school? How the
hell did you get into Cal? As far as I know, Cal
doesn't have legacy admits like Harvard. -dans
\_ Cal only considers GPA, SAT and SAT2
for admissions. If you study hard in
HS, it is pretty easy to get nearly
perfect scores on each of these and
have your pick of engineering majors.
There is no point talking about the complex
stuff if, say, the students can't figure out
that Georgia is a country and a state.
\_ Americans don't need to waste time learning geography.
They just need to do what they're good at doing and
their good 'ol government led by the greatest
president in the world, GWB, will take
care of everything. Ok?
\_ Learning geography doesn't help you
build a better transistor, write
better code, sequence DNA, &c.
If the choice is between wasting
time on geography or taking more
math and science, the choice to
me is OBVIOUS. But, if you want
to take the bs classes to pad your
GPA and feel good about your place
in the world, don't complain when
Asian engineers and scientists
take over all the major US industries.
\_ Yes, because understanding the world around you
and applying that understanding in the ballot
booth is much less important than the newest
language feature or most recent BSD kernel
release. Philosophy is for those *other* people
that run the country, and therefore clearly is
beneath the lofty study of us engineers!!!1!one
\_ Philosophy is mostly for people
who can't get into a real major
(or are driven insane b/c they
majored in math).
2. His job is to ensure that the maximum number of students
learn the maximum amt of geography w/in the school year.
His actions may run counter to this.
\_ That's got to be the most ridiculously bad, oversimplifying
misuse of mathematical/economic jargon I've ever seen used to
describe what a teacher's job is. Plus you don't even know
what Geography is. -dans
\_ Geography is map reading: the study of the earth and
\_ Err, you might want to look at the course descriptions
in the berkeley course catalog. I suspect you'll
be unpleasantly surprised.
\_ I'm talking about HS geography, not college
level geography where they can teach all sorts
of stuff and label it whatever they want.
its features and of the distribution of life on earth.
This guy's performance should be measured on based on
how well his kids can read a map and figure out where
different flora and fauna occur, &c.
After listening to a dozen or so of these talks, some
students may conclude that their time during his class
is better spent doing AP Chem homework or playing GBA
rather than learning geography.
This attitude can lead to many students tuning out the
parts of the lecture that are objective. Given the
difficulty of teaching kids, teachers ought not take
affirmative steps that can make learning even harder.
\_ Ok, I also finally gave in and listened. Geez. The problem
here isn't the guy's political positions, it's that his lecture
is stream of consiousness. CIGARETTES!! GUNS! WMDs!
CAPITALISM! BUSH!!! VIOLENCE!!! I've taken science classes
that were stream of consiousness by profs who didn't bother
to prepare, and it's retarded no matter what the content
is. "Here's a picture of me with a nobel laureate! One time,
I was taking a piss, and I invented a new transistor! Fermi
functions!!!"
\_ Alright buddy, how about less exclamations and more vacations?
\_ #DEFINE LEARNING_GEOGRAPHY ROTE_MEMORIZATION_AND_LEARNING_BASIC\
_MAP_READING_SKILLS_A_KINDERGARTENER_COULD_PICK_UP_IN_A_WEEK
-dans
\_ Well if a kindergartener could pick it up in
a week, why is it that only 25% of graduating
seniors are considered proficient in geography?
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/geography/results/natachieve-g12.asp
\_ Maybe because we don't teach it to kids in
kindergarten when it might actually present a
an exciting challenge? -dans
\_ Okay, we don't teach it in kindergarten,
and we don't teach it in HS. So kids never
learn it. Teaching geopolitics when you
don't know geography is like trying to
teach calc to someone who can't even do
algebra.
\_ Geography encompasses both map reading and
geopolitics. The two go hand in hand. You must
be a robot if you believe typical high school
students will learn anything from a semester long
class where all they do is read maps and memorize
the names of places. -dans
\_ Personally I would rather have spent
a semester learning things like how
to read navigation charts, elevation
charts, the historical development
of major cities, biodiversity, &c.
rather than some self-godwin'ed
drivel about US BAD, WHITE MAN KILLS!
\_ I prefer to read about how us
British conquered and ruled the
world, and how we administered
150 million Indians through the
Indian Civil Service, much more
effectively than the incompetent
Americans did with their conquests.
If geography doesn't help you rule
the world more effectively, what good
is it? |
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