Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 42124
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2025/04/28 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
4/28    

2006/3/7-9 [Computer/Rants, Politics/Domestic/Immigration] UID:42124 Activity:kinda low
3/7     Demographics in China.  http://www.slate.com/id/2137680
        \_ hehe.  so India and China might face the same sort of problems
           we have here - competing with immigrants for jobs.
           \_ Sorry, when did you last have to compete with an immigrant for
              a job?
              \_ I have applied a few times at KODAK/OFOTO in
                 EMERYVILLE.  as required by law, they advertise
                 now and then on Craigslist and make a half hearted
                 effort to interview people.  My internal sources
                 say they keep subcontracting all the work through
                 inefficient, but very cheap Indian programmers,
                 I think through Wipro, and they haven't hired an
                 actual American citizen in recent memory.  So:
                 yes, I feel like I am competing with huge amounts
                 of imaginary immigrants even though its just outsourcing.
                 \_ It's pretty common.  Anyway, I have it from people who
                    have worked there that it's a mess at Ofoto anyway.
              \_ I see your point, but don't be so callous.  I grew up in
                 the central valley where many Americans have been left
                 behind.  In some cases it's their fault, in other cases
                 it's because the educational system is pathetic and
                 because they grew up in really, really crappy dysfunctional
                 families.  And they compete for jobs with immigrants,
                 legal and illegal.
                 \_ I certainly don't mean to sound callous, but competing
                    for jobs with legal immigrants sounds like a natural
                    process and wholly in keeping with the American Dream.
                    However, if you're suggesting we need to pump more public
                    funding into education and enforcing fair labor practices,
                    I'm right there with you. Just don't blame it on the
                    immigrants.
                    \_ I'm sure immigrants have helped engineering job
                       salaries to shrink somewhat. I'm sure the dotcom bust
                       has also contributed to that more.
                    \_ I'm sure immigrants have helped cause some tech
                       salary deterioration, if just a little.  Depends
                    \_ I'm sure immigrants are responsible for some tech
                       wage deterioration, if just a little.  Depends
                       on how far up the corporate ladder you stand.
                       \_ AGrove and POmidyar probably skews the scale way up.
              \_ H1B? Outsourcing?
                 \_ Well, H1B, green card, or naturalized if we're talking
                    legal immigration; outsourcing wouldn't qualify as
                    outsourcing unless you lost your job to Little Kabul.
2025/04/28 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
4/28    

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Cache (6353 bytes)
www.slate.com/id/2137680
By Ian Bremmer Posted Tuesday, March 7, 2006, at 1:16 PM ET China's vast supply of cheap labor and India's army of capable engineers have attracted enormous flows of foreign investment to their countries over the past several years. But beneath our assumptions about the future of economic growth in these two countries lie important questions about how long these trends can remain quite so miraculous. expected to nearly quadruple over the next five years to around $60 billion. Less well-understood is a looming demographic challenge that could undermine China's ability to grow rich before its population grows old. Emerging-market investors in search of an alternative should note that India faces a demographic challenge of its own. Goldman Sachs suggest that China's workforce may begin to shrink sooner than we thought. The steep drop is due in large part to China's one-child policy, first implemented in 1979. China's current retirement age is 50 for most women and 60 for most men. There are two reasons this shift will put considerable strain on China's economic performance. First, the country's explosive economic growth over the last several years is due mostly to its plentiful supply of cheap labor. When the working-age population begins to drop five years from now, China's appeal to international investors may begin to fall as well. Second, by 2050, every 10 Chinese workers will support seven Chinese who are too young or too old to work, according to Goldman Sachs. Even that projection is based on the optimistic assumption that the central government will soon persuade its citizens to work until they are 64. The Deutsche Bank study includes a warning from the International Monetary Fund that the transition from the current pension system to a more sustainable one could cost developing China $100 billion, not including the financial burden on local governments. The population is aging in Japan and in many European countries, as well, but these states are already wealthy. The financial stresses on China, where the average per-capita income remains a fraction of those of developed states, will be much more difficult to bear. No one can forecast with confidence what it will cost China to care for the 265 million citizens who will be over the age of 65 by 2020. But the new reports suggest that the shrinking of China's labor force will begin by the end of this decade. What's more, as China's economy has grown, so has the level of social unrest within the country. The number of what the Chinese government calls "mass group incidents" has risen by about 10 percent a year for more than a decade. In 2004, that number reached 74,000 and involved some 37 million people, according to the Chinese security minister. That's more than 200 protests across the country per day, involving an average of 50 people. China's growing demographic problem may persuade some foreign investors--already wary of the opaque, authoritarian political system and the increasingly well-coordinated and violent protests--to further diversify their portfolios away from risks in China. Perhaps some of that investment will flow toward India, the rising economic star that is today in China's considerable shadow. India's democracy, its relative transparency, and its commitment to economic liberalization offer enormous advantages for investors who are concerned by the Chinese Communist Party's long-term ability to contain steadily growing social unrest. India's workforce will continue to grow for the next several decades and will likely surpass China's by 2040. So, there is good reason to believe that India is the safer long-term investment bet. If China's comparative advantage in attracting foreign investment lies in its enormous supply of unskilled labor, India has profited from its considerable pool of skilled workers, many of them English-speaking, who have filled the country's growing number of high-tech and service-sector jobs. But that pool is in danger of reaching its natural limit, as well. According to a report released in December by McKinsey & Co. and the Indian IT trade association Nasscom, if the flow of service-sector jobs continues to grow at its current rate, and if India fails to enact substantial reform of its education system, the country will face a shortfall of 350,000 business-process staff and 150,000 IT engineers by the end of 2010. As the shortage of qualified workers grows, the expansion of India's service sector could shift into reverse, at an enormous cost to the country's still-fragile economic development. India's world-class IT and engineering schools are not the problem. In fact, India already graduates five times as many engineers each year as the United States. The real problem lies in India's universities and in its woefully uneven level of primary education. The McKinsey-Nasscom report suggests that only 25 percent of India's university graduates have the basic skills--including the minimum level of spoken English--needed for work in the sectors that have fueled India's recent growth. The percentage of Indians who leave school by age 10 is 40 percent. Not coincidentally, 40 percent of Indian citizens are illiterate. The most formidable obstacle to Indian efforts to reform its education system is that local governments control education policy. As a result, development of a coherent solution to the shortage of qualified faculty, inadequate educational infrastructure, and the current system's inability to produce the skilled workers its fast-changing economy demands will be both profoundly difficult and time-consuming. There's very little chance that China and India can quickly solve these problems. It will be decades before China can redress its demographic deficit, particularly given the central government's deep reluctance to ease immigration restrictions. In the short term, India's education system can be improved at the margins, but the country's factionalized politics ensures that the level of policy coordination between the central and regional governments necessary for broader reforms is unlikely to develop anytime soon. For the next several years, China and India will continue to profit from large inflows of foreign investment, but investors in these states will do well to remember that past performance is no guarantee of future results.