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| 12/25 |
| 2006/2/14-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:41833 Activity:moderate |
2/13 So, now that Hamas is in power, is it likely they're going to change
their military stance toward Israel?
\_ Um, since the election they've repeatedly said their goal continues
to be to wipe Israel off the face of the Earth. Why would you
expect them to change anything?
\_ Wishful thinking?
\_ Because if they don't, they'll be broke and destitute. The
"Arab" community doesn't really like them, they just enjoy
using them as an excuse for poor behavior.
\_ I suppose after a while they might just emulate Araft by
saying nice things on the world stage, but supporting
terrorists at home.
\_ free democratic elections in the middle east!
http://tinyurl.com/cluk4
as long as the people elect who we want
\_ This is the whole thing about being responsible for your vote
and government in a democracy. If you elect fuckwits to office
who your foreign sponsors hate, they'll cut your fuckit people
off the free flow of cash. If your people are willing to forgoe
foreign aid in exchange for having fuckwit terrorists as your
government, then more power to you. I applaud the palestinian
people for finally standing up and telling the world how they
really feel and putting in people who best represent that
feeling, however I'm not required to help fund their newly
elected terrorist organization. The sooner the rest of the
middle east elects the same sort of terrorist psychos, the
sooner the rest of the world will "get it". Frankly, the
honesty of the palestinian people is refreshing.
\_ with all the enormous corruption in the palestinian government
I don't think the people even care; they probably barely
see a cent of it anyway.
\_ Fatah was corrupt. It remains to be seen how much Hamas
pockets, but they have "won the hearts and minds" of the
people with hospitals, etc that Fatah's greedy hands
weren't able to run. They're murderous scum but they're
not entirely stupid. Expect more hospitals, schools, etc
along with more EU and UN money going directly into more
terrorist acts.
\_ Ah, but with that political capital that Hamas has with
the man in the street, they could probably get far more
popular support for a peace agreement than Fatah.
I'm not saying they'll do it, just that if they suddenly
had a change of heart, they are in a better position to
do it than the previous leadership. Like Nixon in China.
\_ Dude, I don't really know what is the big deal with Hamas?
PLO was on Terrorist List, PKK of Iraq is *STILL*
on the Terrorist List and we are dumping millions of dollars to
aid their cause. What makes Hamas so special that just because
they are supposely a "terrorist organization" that we won't deal
with them any more different than PLO and PKK? *FURTHER*, what
is the big deal about democratically elected government? If we
don't like them, we can always topple them. We've done it in
Guatemala, Iran, and Chile, and we can always do that again anytime
we wanted.
\_ Standard big world politics. Our bastards vs. not-our bastards.
\_ didn't say anything about others. But I am just so sick of
hearing us having any principles.
\_ No, they don't have any reason to change their stance. They are
fighting for what they believe is a legitimate cause (i.e. why
should Palestine lose land for the creation of Israel when it
was the Germans that commited the atrocities of WWII). And
honestly, Bush should put himself on the terror list. Who else
but him could unilaterally attack a nation over false pretense?
Who else but him would torture others around the world? Does
any other nation around the world even do that anymore? I've
never seen anyone more morally bankrupt. It disgusts me.
\_ You were doing fine until you got to, "Bush should put...".
Then you fell into whacky nut ranter territory.
\_ Germany already lost a large amount of land which went
to Poland and Russia, while Russia kept half of the prewar
Poland that Stalin took in agreement with Hitler, which the
noble allies conveniently overlooked along with his invasion
of Finland and seizure of land there. They drove out all
the Poles from that area and all the Germans from the other
areas. So that land is what could have become Israel.
But anyway... the Jews would always want the Palestinian
Israel. Also Palestine wasn't and isn't a country so
technically it didn't lose land.
As for your Bush rant, it doesn't help your cause to spout
hyperbolic bullshit. |
| 12/25 |
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| tinyurl.com/cluk4 -> www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/14/international/middleeast/14mideast.html&OQ=_rQ3D3Q26orefQ3DsloginQ26orefQ3Dslogin&OP=55b1617bQ2FQ60Q3AC8Q60Q3BQ5Ce72Q5CQ5C3Q3CQ60Q3C..HQ60.Q3CQ60dyQ605o3C2oG35Q5CoGQ2BQ60Q265Q3BQ3BQ2BCCG73Q60dyQ Middle East US and Israelis Are Said to Talk of Hamas Ouster Muhammed Muheisen/Associated Press Newly elected legislators from Hamas, top left, watched the last session of the departing Palestinian parliament on Monday from the visitor area. Israel are discussing ways to destabilize the Palestinian government so that newly elected Hamas officials will fail and elections will be called again, according to Israeli officials and Western diplomats. The hope is that Palestinians will be so unhappy with life under Hamas that they will return to office a reformed and chastened Fatah movement. The officials also argue that a close look at the election results shows that Hamas won a smaller mandate than previously understood. The officials and diplomats, who said this approach was being discussed at the highest levels of the State Department and the Israeli government, spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to speak publicly on the issue. They say Hamas will be given a choice: recognize Israel's right to exist, forswear violence and accept previous Palestinian-Israeli agreements as called for by the United Nations and the West or face isolation and collapse. Opinion polls show that Hamas's promise to better the lives of the Palestinian people was the main reason it won. But the United States and Israel say Palestinian life will only get harder if Hamas does not meet those three demands. They say Hamas plans to build up its militias and increase violence and must be starved out of power. The officials drafting the plan know that Hamas leaders have repeatedly rejected demands to change and do not expect Hamas to meet them. "The point is to put this choice on Hamas's shoulders," a senior Western diplomat said. "If they make the wrong choice, all the options lead in a bad direction." The strategy has many risks, especially given that Hamas will try to secure needed support from the larger Islamic world, including its allies Syria and Iran, as well as from private donors. It will blame Israel and the United States for its troubles, appeal to the world not to punish the Palestinian people for their free democratic choice, point to the real hardship that a lack of cash will produce and may very well resort to an open military confrontation with Israel, in a sense beginning a third intifada. The officials said the destabilization plan centers largely on money. The Palestinian Authority has a monthly cash deficit of some $60 million to $70 million after it receives between $50 million and $55 million a month from Israel in taxes and customs duties collected by Israeli officials at the borders but owed to the Palestinians. Israel says it will cut off those payments once Hamas takes power, and put the money in escrow. On top of that, some of the aid that the Palestinians currently receive will be stopped or reduced by the United States and European Union governments, which will be constrained by law or politics from providing money to an authority run by Hamas. The group is listed by Washington and the European Union as a terrorist organization. Israel has other levers on the Palestinian Authority: controlling entrance and exit from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip for people and goods, the number of workers who are allowed into Israel every day, and even the currency used in the Palestinian territories, which is the Israeli shekel. Israeli military officials have discussed cutting Gaza off completely from the West Bank and making the Israeli-Gaza border an international one. They also say they will not allow Hamas members of the Palestinian parliament, some of whom are wanted by Israeli security forces, to travel freely between Gaza and the West Bank. On Sunday, Acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced after a cabinet meeting that Israel would consider Hamas to be in power on the day the new parliament is sworn in: this Saturday. So beginning next month, the Palestinian Authority will face a cash deficit of at least $110 million a month, or more than $1 billion a year, which it needs to pay full salaries to its 140,000 employees, who are the breadwinners for at least one-third of the Palestinian population. The employment figure includes some 58,000 members of the security forces, most of which are affiliated with the defeated Fatah movement. |