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| 5/18 |
| 2006/2/8-10 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:41772 Activity:very high |
2/8 Does anyone else feel that these stupid demonstrations by Muslims
(including the Paris riots) are actually working against Al Qaeda?
I mean, it seems they are uniting the US and Europe against them.
\_ Muslims that used to fight each other have lately been solidified
by the cartoon and are uniting with each other in protest to
what they perceive as the big white oppressive dickheads that
keep interfering with the Middle East. So, you're the stupid one.
\_ Isn't it more important to stay on good terms with Europe
than with some extremist faction(s)?
\_ Al Qaeda are insane. Not in the deprecating "we just don't
understand their 'otherness'" sort of way... literally certifiably
insane. There isn't some master group that's planning all activities
of all groups that claim to be Al Qaeda (another problem) for some
grand, achieveable, sensible goal. They're batshit.
\_ We should give Al Quaida more credit. They are kicking the
shit out of us in Iraq. They're a lot smarter than you think
they are.
\_ You're an idiot. No such thing is happening in Iraq. Stop
using KOS as your primary news source. AlQ is a bunch of
psychotics whose primary 'tactic' is sending other people's
children into crowds of civilians to blow themselves up which
pisses off all the locals. The local insurgents will whither
away and stop blowing shit up as we reduce troop levels and
the new central government gains its footing. We can and
are reducing troop levels because AlQ has been getting
butchered.
\_ Death rate up? Check.
Electricity production down? Check.
Oil production down? Check.
Are we losing the war in Iraq? Yes.
It doesn't take Kos to see that, just a sober and
honest assessment of quantifiable statistics.
\_ Death rate up from what? When Saddam was killing 5k
a month of his own people?
Electricity down from what? When Saddam was cutting
off the south from power to punish and keep them in
line?
Oil production down? From foreign terrorists killing
local oil engineers and sabotaging pipelines here and
there, but less often than before?
Losing? Absolutely not. Complete and utter crap.
Your 'sober and honest assessment' needs some serious
reassessing. Adding something called "context" wouldn't
hurt either. While we're at it, let's not mention the
nation wide votes they've had that went off with no
serious events and that the Sunni's didn't boycott the
most recent one. Join us out here in the real world
where both good and bad things happen but where over
time the good things increase while the bad things
decrease. KosWorld is a dark, ugly, depressing place
and not reality based.
\_ And Bushworld is a happy, pretty place with flowers
and candy. Yeah, life may suck in Iraq, but it
doesn't suck because of Saddam any more! Yay!
And it only took $430 billion to do it! Yay!
And it only took $430 billion (so far) to do it! Yay!
\_ That's a weak rhetorical ploy. If you can't
respond to the charge, bang your shoe on the
table and get sarcastic and bitter. Maybe
next time you'll bring some facts along to help
you out. Too bad the facts aren't on your side.
\_ "less than before" "complete and utter crap"
"saddam did it worse". You call these strong
arguments? You've offered no facts, and by
all accounts, you're full of shit. Granted,
those accounts are hard to come by because
JOURNALISTS CAN'T DO THEIR FUCKING JOB BECAUSE
IRAQ IS A SHITHOLE BECAUSE OF OUR FAILURE.
\_ I gave a summary for the simple/closed
minded of facts that should be known. That
you're unaware the Saddam used the
electric system as a political control or
killed thousands of his own peoeple every
month is not entirely your fault. As you
say, the journalists aren't doing their
jobs and only give us the bad side so people
like you who are unable or unwilling to dig
deeper to find the truth are left believing
in the "quagmire" and "vietnam" DNC fax
points idiocy. Stop reading KOS.
\_ #1: wtf is KOS? I obviously don't
read it.
\_ "Obviously"? You claim not to
but sure sound like a daily
reader. "obviously" is not the
word I would have chosen esp.
for someone on the motd with
your political bias. The motd
has had numerous Kos links on
it for a long time. Unless
you're brand new here, I find it
extremely unlikely you're not
only never read it but don't even
know the name. Whatever. Make
any BS claim you'd like in that
regard. I don't care what you
read. It won't help you since
your mind is already made up.
YOU SMART! THEM DUMB!
#2: If you believe that we've won the
war in Iraq, why don't you prove
your confidence by moving over
there and living there for a
couple years. Obviously, living
in the United States, you have never
ever experienced living in a
war-zone, let alone a war that
is illegitimate.
\_ Don't misquote me. I never said
we won Iraq. We're still there,
duh. So there's some magical
difference for civilians in a
"ligitimate war" vs an
"illigitmate war"? Riiiight.
You're way too into your own
politics to think clearly. War
is bad, k?
#3: I think you should be happy that
you will never have a smart bomb
drop on your wedding. Now stop
trying to make it seem like the
Iraqis have it good.
\_ We carpet bombed German cities
and fire bombed Dresden. I
feel bad for the civilians of
all wars, but as these things
go, Iraq was pretty easy on
the civilian population. Are
you opposed to all war for any
reason? What is your answer to
Darfur? Should we ignore it as
we have? How many civilians
continue to die there and many
other places throughout history
while "good men stood by and
did nothing"?
#4: Better yet, if one day we have
higher taxes because of all the
money we've spent on this war
(and hence one of the reasons
for our all-time high federal
deficit), I want YOU to personally
volunteer to pay more taxes
because you are in support of our
government wasting money out there.
Obviously supporting the war and
not wanting to back it up with
your wallet is hypocritical.
\_ Sure, do I get to *not* pay
the share that goes to other
things I disagree with? I'll
make out really well. I'd be
quite happy if I only had to
pay for the things government
does that I like. Since I like
so few of them my taxes would
drop to near zero. What would
your tax burden look like? You
call me a hypocrite before you
got an answer. I'm sorry, but
you're flat out dead wrong. I'd
be very very happy to be taxed
under your "only pay for what
you like" plan. Right now our
taxes are the lowest they've
been in decades and are due to
automagically rise again at the
end of the 10 year tax cut deal.
I'd be surprised if they did
anything but go up given where
they are now and the history of
taxation in this country and
others but it won't have a damned
thing to do with Iraq.
\_ Oh, I think you'll see more appeasement and self-censorship from
Europe. "Islam is protected by an invisible blasphemy law. It
is called fear."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-2025314,00.html
\_ While I agree that the Muslim riots are really hurting thier cause
in the long run, your claiming that Muslim = Al Quaeda
(even radical muslim = Al Quaeda) is either a major troll or
racist bullshit, and probably both.
\_ Where did I claim that all Muslims = Al Qaeda? However, Al Qaeda
certainly seems to support these activities and yet it works
against them. IOW, I don't see bin Laden issuing a video
telling the rioters to stay calm. I'm sure he also sees,
say, this cartoon, as blasphemy.
\_ you are an idiot. alqueda sees all westerners as agents
of satan. it doesn't care what satan say or not say. it
just want to destroy them.
\_ If you use "Al Qaeda" in the greater sense, meaning something like
"the body of people in the muslim world who actively or tacitly
support cutting the heads off infidels and things like honor
killings and sharia", I hope that the recent collective temper
tantrum may cause at least a few people who use their brains to
re-evaluate their position. I also assume there are a fair
number of educated and decent muslims who're aghast at this. That
said, I believe this will western societies to think much more
critically about islam, and to tolerate less of the whingeing,
bullying snits you tend to see when someone feels offended by the
evil crusaders. -John
\_ moderate muslims are losing the war against fundamentalists
because western imperialists keep helping the fundamentalists
by doing stupid things like invading Iraq.
\_ there are no "moderate muslims". it's a myth. who exactly
are these mythical "moderate muslims"? Can you name any?
I believe your so-called "moderate muslims" are the normal
people who just want to live their lives and be left alone.
The average "muslim in the street" is not going to take up
arms or in any other meaningful way stand up to AlQ, Hamas,
Fatah, etc. Quite the contrary, Hamas just got *elected*
if you'll recall. You have no friends among the "moderate
muslims" for there are none.
\_ er .... the muslim world is bigger than you realize.
\_ the average Iraqi is pretty much a moderate, until
your stupid president and his lackeys decided to
invade the country illegally. I came from a country
with 20% muslims and my work group of 7 has two muslims,
so give me the bullshit about no moderate muslims.
your stupid president and his gang decided to
invade the country illegally.
invade the country illegally. even now, most
Iraqis are still moderates, including many of those
who just want to kick you out of Iraq. there are
some bad terrorists, but most of those are
foreigners. there is also a general shift
toward fundamentalism especially among the
toward fundamentalism among the
shiites cause they are falling under the
influence of the iranian mullahs again thanks
to your stupid war.
\_ The stupid war makes a pretty convenient scapegoat.
Anti-Americanism (and anti-Westernism, anti-secularism,
and anti-not-killing-your-daughter-for-being-rapederism)
are widespread in large portions of the muslim world
that haven't been invaded by the US (or anyone.) You'll
note the popularity of Bin Laden #1 Fan Club t-shirts
on the streets of Pakistan and Jakarta and wherever
after 9/11--well before the stupid war. The Iraq war,
while fought on dishonest premises, is just a
convenient excuse and outlet for thugs. Think again,
young padawan, cosmic truths may be revealed. -John
\_ killing your daughter for being raped is more
tribal than islamic. indonesians were mostly
pro-US before the Iraq war, and last I check both
it and its neighbour malaysia have become more
and more democratic moving away from one party
rule. many surveys have shown that there is
considerable goodwill towards America and what
it represents among the common people in
many muslim countries, but that it had evaporated
since the illegal and unjustifiable invasion of
iraq.
\_ BZZZT!!! Sorry. They're both one 'party'
dictatorships. Name the 'other party'
that ran in the last election in either
country. Oh wait. There wasn't an
election in either place. Why do you
insist on coming here and saying such
trivially destroyed lies? Do you really
think you're fooling anyone? If you're
going to troll, you need to base your
garbage on half-truths at least. Trolling
from a position of truth is always the
best way to get under people's skin. The
Young Troll Advisory Board has rated this
troll as: WEAK!
\_ Really? How come this economist
article says you are talking out
of your arse?:
http://tinyurl.com/cb4m6
rule. many surveys have shown that there is
considerable goodwill towards America and what
it represents among the common people in
many muslim countries, but that it evaporated
after the illegal and unjustifiable invasion of
many muslim countries, but that it had evaporated
since the illegal and unjustifiable invasion of
iraq.
\_ The Economist says you are
talking out of your arse:
http://tinyurl.com/cb4m6
\_ It's not unjustifiable. Illegal? Why don't you
report it to the police?
\_ Illegal as in without the expressed
authorization of the United Nations. But
not even that... we didn't even have the
consensus agreement of the world to invade
Iraq. We just unilaterally invaded the
country. Complete bull-shit. Why do you
think so many people are rooting for our
downfall? Obviously, by abusing our superpower
status, we aren't earning any friends.
\_ don't tell me, tell your friends in Europe,
Canda, Asia who were predominantly against
Canada, Asia who were predominantly against
the war.
\_ Undoubtedly the war hasn't helped, but claiming
that these muslim countries were hotbed of happy
pro-American sentiment before it is sort of
silly. -John
\_ Nobody is claiming that. Also don't confuse
being moderate with being pro-American.
\_ Read pp's post. He said "Indonesians were
mostly pro-US before the Iraq war." Cosmic
truths may be revealed to you. -John
\_ "These muslim countries" >> "Indonesia".
"considerable goodwill" != "hotbed of
happy pro-American sentiment".
Learn to read.
\_ "These muslim countries" in reference
to Indonesia and Malaysia. As you
say, learn to read. Supreme cosmic
truths may be revealed. -John
\_ In Indonesia, US popularity
was 61% in early 2002,
plummeted to 15% in 2004,
rebounding to 30+ percent
after Tsunami efforts.
\_ oh wow, you win. |
| 5/18 |
|
| www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-2025314,00.html The Times and The Sunday Times electronic paper The Times and The Sunday Times electronic paper Search Search The Sunday Times - Comment The Sunday Times February 05, 2006 Christianity is the faith under real attack Jasper Gerard Behead those who insult Islam," demanded a placard. Blimey, how would these Muslims protest if the cartoons were actually funny? We have not seen such a sense-of-humour failure since Prezza found Charles Clarke had scoffed the last jam roly-poly. The police smiled at the young girl in the "I Love Al-Qaeda" bobble hat, and her elders threatening death: the law banning incitement to racial hatred it seems applies only to nasty white racists; These extremists should be told: you can't complain that Islam is being tarred with terrorism, then instantly threaten to terrorise those who have thus depicted Islam. Yet Jack Straw grovels like a spaniel, even though the cartoons have not been printed here. He argues Islam should not be insulted as no "open season" exists on Christianity. Er, foreign secretary, have you never been to a Gilbert and George exhibition? Their latest offering is Sonofagod Pictures -- Was Jesus Heterosexual?. Christ is subjected to sniggers normally endured only by Mark Oaten. Yet even artists whose shtick is to shock would never lampoon God's Islamic oppo. The one established faith in this country is the only one we are free to insult. Since cinemas looked so silly banning The Life of Brian, the church has given up asking not to be jeered. Who would protest if an Islamic cartoon showed an Anglican suicide bomber packing Semtex in the boot of his Morris Minor? Turning a tolerant cheek is one of Christianity's most appealing aspects. Certain other faiths lack that blessed gift: the ability to laugh. Perhaps Muslims take offence more because they believe more. But they must also realise that the West's real religion is rationalism: all beliefs, even faiths, should be open to reasoned attack. Our self-censorship shows why the clause that would have banned religious insults was not needed. The headlines were clear: "Prescott backs school reform". It was John Boy who, in the most eloquent enunciation of Labour values yet, opined that the problem with creating successful schools is that everyone would want to go to them. He is teased for being incoherent, but in one phrase he articulated -- more succinctly than any colleague, including those who actually passed their 11-plus -- the difference between those of us who believe choice drives up standards and those who feel we should be bloody grateful for whatever the state chucks at us. Many of us were struggling to decide if we backed the education bill; depending on who was being spun to, it seemed to offer two entirely different visions. But if the Prescottian Jaguar has swerved into a 180-degree turn it means just one thing: Tony Blair has caved in to the (failing) Prescott school of education. And what a familiar pattern: Blair vows to fight to the death, then backs down entirely. Blair promises of defiance are like Silvio Berlusconi pledges of chastity: sincerely meant, perhaps, but withdrawn by bedtime. When confusion reigns, sometimes one can only judge a measure by its men. So if dear old John Boy is all for this bill, we should surely be against it. We're the only gays in the lake Well they are pink, so that must be a giveaway. Two flamingos, Carlos and Fernando, have been outed as Britain's "first gay flamingos". So there they are, innocently cruising for a loose shrimp, when they are accused of flying for the other side and lined up for a civil partnership. With typical homophobia, tabloids accuse the birds of pinching a straight couple's chicks. This follows the outing of gorillas, lions and even salmon. Soon, no doubt, Fernando will be accused of engaging in "unspeakable acts" with a rent bird, or phoning the notorious gay tweet line, Bird Talk. He lost a by-election to "the straight choice" Simon Hughes, then promoted the outing of prominent homosexuals. Far from aiding the image of gays, outing has merely spread bigotry and ruined lives. Take the headline that outed Hughes: "Another one bites the pillow". Poor flamingos: a moment (well, five years) of madness, and two more blameless figures are forced to duck out of public life. Bugging MPs - an issue of low intelligence Parliament could soon be overrun by buggers. I refer, of course, to Tony Blair's admission that he is considering allowing spooks to bug MPs Why bug MPs? If they do, it will be round the Strangers' bar by lunch. Their letters tend to be from lobbyists who fleece clients saying MPs have power to do something. Some would struggle to hold their own in a debate on enlargement with Chantelle. All that is top secret on an MP's desk are his expenses and account details with the local Virgin Mega Brothel or wherever it is the MP likes to call his "hinterland". The people who would love to acquire these secrets are the whips, who keep "black books" on the private lives of MPs to ensure obedience. And then MPs will be impotent to do what they did, so satisfyingly, to Tone last week -- giving him the beating he so richly deserves. Being attacked by Geoffrey Howe was likened to being "savaged by a dead sheep"; For the former deputy prime minister still accepts a chauffeured limo, at taxpayers' expense, over 15 years after leaving office -- for "security reasons", you understand. Top marks to Norman Baker, the Lib Dem MP, for ferreting this out. No one seriously believes Osama is in his cave muttering: "We must avenge his boring 1981 budget speech." Howe's one possible assassin is the lady he knifed: Lady T You can almost see her, Clouseau-like in the bushes, whisky in one hand, smoking revolver in the other: "The sheep is dead. |
| tinyurl.com/cb4m6 -> www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%27%29%28%3C%28QQ3%20%23%40%23%2C%0A To read it, please log in, or pick a subscription option. Time to deliver Dec 9th 2004 From The Economist print edition INDONESIANS cannot eat democracy, sniffed Singapore's Straits Times before the last of Indonesia's three elections this year. Singapore's state-controlled press may not be the most dogged defender of political freedoms, but the newspaper has a point. Over the past six years, Indonesia has undergone a remarkable transformation from near-dictatorship to vigorous democracy, culminating in the inauguration in October of Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, the country's first directly elected president.... Log in If you hold unused Pay Per View credits, or you already have an active subscription, please log in to view the article: E-mail address Password Remember my password on this computer? |