1/31    OK, so this is trolling but I'm half-serious:
        With regard to the "Muhammad cartoon" controversy, are the Muslims
        insane?  I can understand being mad that someone is making fun of your
        main religous figure.  But leaders if Muslim countries are closing
        their Danish embassies and demanding the Danish gov't punish Danish
        cartoonists in Denmark.  They are calling it hate-speach when it is at
        worst a disrespectful political caricature.  While the Muslims
        obviously have no concept of freedom-of-speech, don't that at least
        understand that a foreign country has the right to apply its own laws
        to its own citizens?  How much of this is just grandstanding and how
        much is actually intolerance of free speech?
        \_ This is one reason the demographic trends in Europe are kind of
           disturbing.
        \_ The US and Europe have felt free to tell Muslim countries how to
           run themselves for centuries...
           \_ True, but in situations like say 'honor killings' and religious
              repression, western societies generally say "stop that", not
              "we demand you punish the perpetrators"
           \_ It has nothing to do with "felt".  It has to do with "the strong
              always rule the weak".  It is the nature of things.  For this
              reason, you should hope the West never falls to Islam during
              your lifetime.  You'll have a lot more to bitch about and a lot
              less freedom to bitch about it.
               \_ I agree.  The West wiped a whole continent clean of its
                  original inhabitants.  That's how they "rule the weak".
                  Don't believe in their bullshit about freedom, etc.
                  They don't really give a shit about your freedom.  When
                  it comes to their self interest and your freedom, you
                  can be sure that your freedom will be flushed down
                  the toilet.  That's why I like Putin a lot.  He knows
                  how to say "fuck you" to the face of the Western
                  hypocrites.
                  \_ *laugh* Yes, ex-Soviet Russia under Putin is such a nice
                     place to live compared to *any* Western nation.  You had
                     a good start with the genocide thing to which there is
                     a response which could have turned into an interesting
                     debate, but once you held up Putin as some kind of hero,
                     you went over the edge and became Yet Another Lame Troll.
                     The Young Troll Ratings board rates this troll as: WEAK!
        \_ A lot of it is for appearances, especially to their constituents
           and the rest of the Islamic world. Libya, mind you, is wacky
           enough that they might just be doing it on principle (that
           principle being that anything the Colonel doesn't like is evil).
           OTOH, imagine how the Catholic world would react to political
           cartoons of the Pope buggering an altar boy; I doubt they'd close
           embassies, but there would certainly be an outcry.
           \_ I'm not sure anyone would even notice such a cartoon.  There
              are pleanty of anti-catholic cartoons around.  You're
              attempt at equivelency doesn't work.
           \_ http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/382
              "Meanwhile in Brussels a young Muslim immigrant published a
              poster depicting the Virgin Mary with naked breasts. Though
              the picture has drawn some protest from Catholics (though not
              from Western embassies, nor from the bishops), this artist need
              not fear being murdered in the street. On the contrary, he is
              being subsidised by the Ministry for Culture."
              \_ I submit to you that a cartoon equivalating the Pope with a
                 child molester is somewhat more specific and offensive than
                 a picture of the VM baring her breasts or even a cross in
                 a jar of urine.
                 \_ I'm not really up on my Catholic doctrine, but I'm
                    pretty sure Virgin Mary >> pope, by orders of magnitude.
                    \_ Either way, I don't think you'd see rioting in Rome
                       and Western or Catholic countries threatening to
                       close embassies.  The "moral equivalency" crowd should
                       take note of this and a lot of other things coming
                       from the middle east.  Some elements of other cultures
                       are not worthy of respect.  Some elements of other
                       cultures are inferior to the Western cultural model.
                    \_ You're right, VM is greater than Pope in magnitude.
                       However, what I'm saying is that by picturing Mohammed
                       as a terrorist, the cartoonist is labeling all Muslims
                       as terrorists, much as depicting the Pope bugger an
                       altar boy labels all Catholic priests as pedophiles.
                       This is a much more specific charge than depicting VM
                       as a whore, and I think it would engender more outcry.
                       that said, I'm not applauding or excusing the reaction
                       of the governments who closed their embassies over a
                       rather silly political cartoon. Really, these people
                       cannot take a joke.
                       \_ Now, there are plenty of cartoon and art pieces with
                          Jesus (who as son of god probably outranks Mohammed
                          theologically) in compromising situations.  You
                          mentioned Piss Christ, which was just a crucifix.
                          How about Madonna and Child II, also by Serrano?
                          Would that be more offensive than Mohammed as a
                          terrorist?  MaC2 oddly attracted less controversy
                          than Piss Christ.  (N.B. MaC2 is similar to Piss
                          Christ, excedt with VM and baby Jesus instead of
                          a crucifix.)
                          \_ Not all that odd.  It's not like people were
                             fascinated by Serrano.  Falwell found Piss Christ
                             and publicized it.  You wouldn't even know his
                             name if it wasn't for Falwell.
                             \_ I saw the Pope ask for 5 year old boys to
                                molest and then get fed to a giant dinasaur
                                which spurted blood all over the mosh pit
                                at a GWAR concert, and as far as I can tell
                                no one cared and it got no publicity(except
                                in death metal circles where all the publicity
                                was positive because GWAR rulez.)
        \_ So if I draw a cartoon mocking the Flying Spaghetti Monster, do I
           get pulled before the European Court of Human Rights (or whatever)?
           Or is it only when your free speech steps on the toes of billions
           that it's actually a Human Rights issue?
           \_ You need to make that billions who take their religion and
              themselves too seriously.
              \_ And are engaging in a long term war to push their religion
                 on the rest of the world by force and numbers.
           \_ Courts of human rights are western thing. The Muslim reaction
              is violence.
        \_ Though calling back diplomats is in another category of idiotic,
           if you need to convincing that freedom of speech is interpreted
           capriciously in the west too, google for then Mayor Giuliani's
           reaction to Chris Ofili's art work or read about how a rep. of
           the Green Party to the European Parliment called for the entire
           nation of Iran to be banned from the World Cup because of
           Ahmadinedscad's anti-Semitic comments.
           \_ But you didn't see Israelis rioting in the streets or
              threatening Iranians over that. And those are just a couple of
              low-level politicians. Why do you have to equate everything?
              Maybe those cartoons could fall under the "fire in a crowded
              theater" category though, given how fucked up the Muslim
              population is. The concept of personal expression must
              be alien to them.
           \_ There is a difference between the response of an individual
              (Guiliani or that Green Party rep.) and the response of a
              nation or multi-national group.  There is also a difference
              between threatening to withold funding or deny entrance into
              the World Cup and threatening to bomb a newspaper or kill a
              cartoonist.