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| 4/4 |
| 2006/1/4-6 [Politics/Domestic/RepublicanMedia] UID:41231 Activity:moderate |
1/4 Holy crap. I never knew Letterman was such a tool. O'Reilly's a jerk,
but Dave just dismisses fact with "I don't believe you". Nice
interview Dave.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/01/04.html#a6571
\_ You're confusing "fact" with "editorializing"
\_ No, when Letterman said "I don't believe you" O'Reilly had just
noted examples where Christmas imagery, etc. was censored. Those
were facts reported in the AP, etc.
\_ Sorry, I hadn't watched the whole segment. I didn't realize
"I don't believe you" was a direct quote from another part
of the interview. But still, you think this shows letterman
as a tool? To me it shows he's a busy comedian without enough
time to have read and fact-check O'Reilly's entire list of
"proof" of a war on Christmas. If he was sent the story,
I'm sure his reaction would be the same as mine: "Well, that's
silly.. But really, war on christmas?"
b.t.w., A few of O'Reilly's (and others') facts:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/19/AR2005121901802.html
http://tinyurl.com/cu6lo (washingtonpost.com)
\_ O'Reilly didn't say there was a war on Christmas. -emarkp
\_ Not in the interview, but that's been his line for the
last two months. Ergo the "how have your holidays been"
line getting a laugh.
\_ I haven't watched his show for quite a while.
However, what he said on Letterman's show was:
"There is a movement by politically correct people to
erode traditions. And this Christmas tradition is
the most cherished in the country." -emarkp
\_ Before you added this URL (shorten it please) I added the
one below that also debunked the "silent night" claim.
Also, while your link criticizes O'Reilly's statement about
red/green on his show, he corrected himself on Letterman's
show. -emarkp
\_ You gotta love "60% of what you say is crap." That sounds
like about the right ratio to me.
\_ Never watched O'Reilly myself, since I gather it's mostly
crap. But does anyone here actually watch enough O'Reilly
to know it's mostly crap, or is this just some urban
legend?
\_ Yes, I watched O'Reilly. It's mostly crap.
\_ Would you say the Letterman interview is
representative of O'Reilly crap, or is O'Reilly's
show worse (normalizing for the length of the
interview vs. the show, of course)?
\_ Let me give you my definition of O'Reilly crap:
O'Reilly summons dumb liberals to his show and
beats the crap out of them. Usually with facts.
\_ So he picks low-hanging fruit and it's not
fair? That isn't quite the same thing as
crap.
\_ It is to me. Krugman v. O'Reilly is better,
and the show would be less crappier if he
took on as many people like that as
"low-hanging fruit".
Otherwise it's like the Jerry Springer
show for the college-educated (and less
the near-physical confrontations).
\_ I have yet to see /any/ liberal on these
shows discuss facts. Including Krugman.
\_ Cf. Get smart moderates/libs on the
show. Also, Krugman wasn't on
O'Reilly as far as I know; they were
on Russert's show.
\_ Is "fair" interviewee ~= O'Reilly,
or interviewee > O'Reilly, or
interviewee = smart?
\_ What makes you think Krugman v. O'Reilly
is fair? We need a handicapping system
like horse racing or golf.
\_ O'Reilly used to be interesting, but he's now all about the
cult of O'Reilly. And he's a scumbag (the sexual
harassment case). But the things he claimed in this
interview as facts were solid. And Letterman blew it off,
unable to make a coherent point. [Addendum--looks like the
"silent night" lyrics issue is not what some conservatives
have said it is. http://abcnews.go.com/US/print?id=1387602]
-emarkp
\_ Letterman's a comedian. If he were a news analyst by
profession, you might have a point.
\_ Then maybe he should shut his pie hole or if he's
going to be a jerk to his guests he shouldn't invite
them on. -emarkp
\_ Not exactly AP, but I believe it happened, and the library
people allowed Baby Jesus, et al. back in the nativity scene
a day after the first http://worldnetdaily.com article.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47767
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47788
\_ I don't find an AP article on the manger scene, but there
are plenty of reputable sources with the story. See
http://csua.org/u/ehw for some.
\_ Local paper, Local TV, and Washington Times.
I agree that this nativity thing happened, as
characterized.
\_ I really dislike O'Reilly, but Letterman seriously screwed up
that interview. O`Reilly comes off as likeable and honest, and
Letterman comes off as an ignorant tool. That's pathetic.
\_ I don't know. O'Reilly always comes off as seriously misguided
and fooling himself, to me. Letterman comes off spot on
intuition wise, if not fact wise. (Yes, I acknolwedge it is
lame to not have facts.)
\_ I would guess that's only because you agree with
Letterman. Try putting yourself in the shoes of someone
who is not familiar with O'Reilly. (If such a person
exists) To paraphrase Letterman, "I'm not smart enough
to know the facts, and I've never seen your show, and I'm
not familiar with the subject we're talking about, but
you're wrong." WTF?
\_ Yes, I agree that Letterman screwed the pooch for
uninformed viewers who don't know who O'Reilly is and
are inclined to believe there is a war on Christmas.
viewers who aren't familiar with O'Reilly and who are
inclined to believe there is a war on Christmas.
\_ ...in other words, the sort of folk likely to tune in
to O'Reilly in the first place. Unless, of course,
they're turned off by his brusque shouting on a
comedy show? |
| 4/4 |
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| www.crooksandliars.com/2006/01/04.html#a6571 James Risen, co-author of the New York Times blockbuster article exposing warrant-less spying on Americans, appeared on NBC's Today Show yesterday morning. Risen has published a new book, "State of War", that includes Bush's NSA Wiretap program along with other damning revelations. Video-FLASH Risen made some important points during his interview: * 12 or more officials blew the whistle on NSA program. Risen describes these people as patriots who believed that the spying program was illegal. There is some evidence that this may have been the beginnings of a slippery slope which led to torture and the mistreatment of detainees. In each case, the individual returned to report that all of Iraq's WMD programs had been ceased or destroyed in the prior Gulf war. Iraq nuclear program, in particular, was said to have been destroyed by bombings in the first Gulf war. Here again, we have more evidence that the Bush Administration ignored intelligence that did not help their goal of starting a preemptive war on Iraq. Foreign policy was radicalized at the hands of Rumsfeld, Tenet, Cheney, Rice and a few others who would not allow career professionals in the State Department to participate. So how did the revelation of the "warrantless eavesdropping" Bush was engaged in actually hurt national security? Atrios asked the question last night: "Can anyone - anywhere - explain, just a little bit - just one time - how "national security has been damaged" by revelations that the Administration was eavesdropping without FISA-required warrants and judicial oversight rather than with them?" Murray: "All of the above information about the safety violations at the Sago mine have long been public record. Anyone simply could have called up MSHA and had a set of their records in the mail the next day. As an investigative reporter, I am increasingly amazed that one doesn't even happen to call anyone anymore. So many government regulatory documents are even posted on the web. One does not even have to leave their house to do much of their work anymore.... Bill joined David last night on the Late Show and found that Letterman wasn't buying his phony war on Christmas deal. David also wasn't happy about his attacking Cindy Sheehan, the Iraq war and a lot of what Bill has to say in general. about David in the past: "Mr Letterman is a smart guy who can spot a phony with telescopic accuracy and expects his guests to bring something to the table. If a guest begins to sink on this show, the bottom is a long way down." |
| www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/19/AR2005121901802.html Manage Your Newsletters Have a Holly, Jolly Holiday Conservatives, Others Angry Over Removals of Word 'Christmas' By Neely Tucker Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, December 20, 2005; Page C01 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, in considering the ongoing war on Christmas, let us begin with the evidence that Mathew Staver, president of the Liberty Counsel, calls "Exhibit A" Said prosecutorial evidence is tiny Ridgeway Elementary School in Ridgeway, Wis. Youngsters are set to perform a play in which the lyrics to "Silent Night," which celebrates the Christ child's birth, have been changed to "Cold in the Night," which do not. The charge, leveled by both Staver's group and the American Family Association, is that this school rewrote a sacred song to erase Christ from Christmas. The former Capitol Holiday Tree is the Capitol Christmas Tree again, at the behest of House Speaker Dennis Hastert. The former Capitol Holiday Tree is the Capitol Christmas Tree again, at the behest of House Speaker Dennis Hastert. " Here's Tucker Carlson of MSNBC, interviewing Staver: "It is kind of heartening, I think, for Christians to see this, all this outrage, all this fear at Christmastime, you know, Christmas tree, Christmas carol, 'Silent Night'-- oh, that's a, you know, that's a subversive song -- because it means that Christianity isn't dead. Giving people "the creeps" at Christmas is a serious thing, so we decided some actual reporting might be in order. The first thing we found out, contrary to both news releases, is that nobody at the school rewrote anything. Really in-depth reporting -- making two phone calls -- revealed the offending playwright and composer to be one Dwight Elrich. Here is what we found out: Elrich was a music director for a choir at Bel Air Presbyterian, former president Ronald and Nancy Reagan's church in California, for decades. "Cold in the Night" is part of a children's play called "The Little Christmas Tree" (note title). The little tree is looking for a family to take it home, sort of like Charlie Brown's little tree. The play comes with a "Christian" page, which may be performed or not. In Ridgeway, where the play has been performed for years, it is sung with Christian Christmas songs, including "Angels We Have Heard on High." Elrich's other musicals: "What in the World Is Christmas?" ") "Christmas in Hawaii," "365 Days of Christmas Each Year!" "The Little Christmas Tree" has been performed in more than 500 schools and churches across the country for nearly two decades. |
| tinyurl.com/cu6lo -> www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/19/AR2005121901802_pf.html REAL ESTATE Have a Holly, Jolly Holiday Conservatives, Others Angry Over Removals of Word 'Christmas' By Neely Tucker Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, December 20, 2005; C01 Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, in considering the ongoing war on Christmas, let us begin with the evidence that Mathew Staver, president of the Liberty Counsel, calls "Exhibit A" Said prosecutorial evidence is tiny Ridgeway Elementary School in Ridgeway, Wis. Youngsters are set to perform a play in which the lyrics to "Silent Night," which celebrates the Christ child's birth, have been changed to "Cold in the Night," which do not. The charge, leveled by both Staver's group and the American Family Association, is that this school rewrote a sacred song to erase Christ from Christmas. Earlier this month, both groups fired off outraged press releases. " Here's Tucker Carlson of MSNBC, interviewing Staver: "It is kind of heartening, I think, for Christians to see this, all this outrage, all this fear at Christmastime, you know, Christmas tree, Christmas carol, 'Silent Night'-- oh, that's a, you know, that's a subversive song -- because it means that Christianity isn't dead. Giving people "the creeps" at Christmas is a serious thing, so we decided some actual reporting might be in order. The first thing we found out, contrary to both news releases, is that nobody at the school rewrote anything. Really in-depth reporting -- making two phone calls -- revealed the offending playwright and composer to be one Dwight Elrich. Here is what we found out: Elrich was a music director for a choir at Bel Air Presbyterian, former president Ronald and Nancy Reagan's church in California, for decades. "Cold in the Night" is part of a children's play called "The Little Christmas Tree" (note title). The little tree is looking for a family to take it home, sort of like Charlie Brown's little tree. The play comes with a "Christian" page, which may be performed or not. In Ridgeway, where the play has been performed for years, it is sung with Christian Christmas songs, including "Angels We Have Heard on High." Elrich's other musicals: "What in the World Is Christmas?" ") "Christmas in Hawaii," "365 Days of Christmas Each Year!" "The Little Christmas Tree" has been performed in more than 500 schools and churches across the country for nearly two decades. I thought the play was a really charming, wonderful, positive story about love and acceptance . removing it from the Christian tradition was something I never thought anyone could ever come up with. We were telling a story about a little tree, so we used a familiar tune to help the kids get it." Of course, this is just one exhibit on the prosecutorial table. Here's host Bill O'Reilly, in a recent broadcast: "In Plano, Texas, a school told students they couldn't wear red and green because they are Christmas colors. Here's a corresponding memo from Doug Otto, superintendent of schools for Plano: "The school district does not restrict students or staff from wearing certain color clothes during holiday times or any other school days. Our attorney requested of Mr O'Reilly that, in the future, he ask his fact checkers to do a more thorough job of confirming the facts before he airs them." O'Reilly did not correct his broadcast in a prepared statement, instead noting that there was ongoing litigation about other Christmas-related issues at the school. oh, you've heard the rest, in this, the Christmas of our discontent. Those two issues alone have involved Target, Wal-Mart, Sears, the city of Boston, the state of Georgia, the White House and too many others to count. The AFA and the Liberty Counsel alone have mobilized 1,500 Christian lawyers to do battle. So far, they've encountered maybe 60 problem areas, Staver says. "A lot of soldiers in this battle are not going to have much to do but drink eggnog," says Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, who often debates Jerry Falwell and others on these kinds of issues. "We're not out there trying to make this an unpleasant season." On the other hand: "People are so worried about offending the minority, they go ahead and offend the majority, who are Christians," says Tim Wildmon, president of the American Family Association. The War Is On The "war" is composed of conservative Christian groups railing against "politically correct" advertising campaigns that, they say, do not include the words "Merry Christmas" in sales literature or seasonal greetings. Some municipalities and government institutions -- including the US Capitol for many years -- refer to a Christmas tree as a "holiday tree," also drawing flak. It is an emotional campaign -- a petition against Target for not including "Christmas" in its advertising drew more than 600,000 signatures -- but it is also an easy one. Virtually all of the stores that conservative groups have targeted have quickly changed their advertising to feature "Christmas" more prominently, as have many of the groups that had "holiday trees." And despite some high-powered rhetoric -- Fox News host John Gibson says in the subtitle of his book "The War on Christmas" that there is a "liberal plot to ban the sacred Christian holiday" -- neither Gibson, nor anyone at the AFA, the Liberty Counsel, Lynn's group or the ACLU, is aware of an attempt to halt religious observance of Christmas or to stop making it an official federal holiday. And the real irony, religious and academic scholars point out, is that Christmas is observed in one way or another by more Americans than at any point in the nation's history; Given that, perhaps it's not surprising that substantially more people (52 percent) were worried about the commercialization of Christmas than they were about any opposition to displays of religious symbols in public places (35 percent), according to a new nationwide poll by the Pew Research Center. Some 83 percent of respondents said they preferred "Merry Christmas" to something like "Happy Holidays." But in a follow-up question, a plurality of 45 percent said it really didn't matter much either way. To Karal Ann Marling, a University of Minnesota professor of popular culture who documented the holiday's evolution in "Merry Christmas! Celebrating America's Greatest Holiday," the campaign is an attempt to whitewash the nation's religious and ethnic mosaic. "I don't want them to come to my house and poison my dog, but the religious right wants all of American religious life to be permeated by one point of view, and it's just not so," she says. He graces the observation with a gentle laugh, a comforting sound in this suddenly confrontational season. Instead, Byrd suggests looking at the current fray in a larger context: conservative Christians yearning for what appears to be a simpler time. It crunches underfoot as you round the turn into your yard. The small lamp in the kitchen window throws a shaft of light onto the snow. Your mother is there, cooking, singing lightly to herself. It will smell like baking, when you walk in, stamping the snow off your boots, throwing off the cold. Your pop will be in the easy chair, your little sister tramping down the stairs in her angel costume ready to go to the pageant. You go to hear the kid's Christmas play, except by the time it clears all the church-state hurdles the ACLU worries about, it sounds more like "Songs of Many Lands as Sung by 6-Year-Olds." The Christmas Tree at the Capitol in Washington, they call it a "holiday tree" most years now. Even President Bush, a devout Christian, sends out a Christmas card that does not say "Merry Christmas." Now you hear a lot about Kwanzaa, Hanukkah and "the holidays." Byrd says the attention to other traditions, the growing complexity of American life, is frustrating to some Christians, who grew up accustomed to Christmas being the preeminent holiday. "It's the concept of the majority, and what rights they have to define American holidays, about what it means to be an American," Byrd says. "The majority of Americans are Christians who celebrate Christmas, and yet there is a sense of alienation that they are still not able to dominate discou... |
| abcnews.go.com/US/print?id=1387602] If youve reached this page by selecting a bookmark that worked previously, its likely the file moved to a new location because of our recent redesign. |
| www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47767 Alliance Defense Fund say they are working to "educate" the officials about their action, saying the exclusion of the figurines is blatantly unconstitutional. ADF confirmed to WND that the "nativity" scene is up at the library but includes just three palm-sized farm animals and a boy with a sheep over his shoulders. According to a statement from ADF, the controversy arose when Brandi Chambless, a member of the music ministry at Broadmoor Memphis Church, submitted an announcement for display on the library's community shelves regarding the church's upcoming Christmas show. Library officials accepted the announcement but told Chambless that she would have to remove the "inappropriate" figures of the baby Jesus, Joseph, Mary, and the wise men from an accompanying nativity scene and limit it to farm animals alone. "Now we've got a bunch of barnyard animals in our display. We've got a sheep, a goat, a cow," Chambless said last night on the Fox News Channel's "O'Reilly Factor." "This is not the same as a city building a manger at city expense on city property," said Andrew Napolitano, senior judicial anlayst for Fox News. "I think the library's going to back down and let the baby Jesus and the blessed mother be there." ADF says the community shelves have traditionally been open to groups and individuals for the display of announcements, advertisements and other items as a means of providing information to the community. "It truly is ridiculous that we even have to discuss whether a nativity scene can be displayed at Christmas," said ADF senior legal counsel Nate Kellum. "Libraries are supposed to encourage free expression and thought. Government officials do not have the authority to pick and choose which items in a Christmas nativity scene are acceptable for display." "It is blatantly unconstitutional for the government to single out speech from a church for discrimination simply because it is religious," Kellum wrote. "For this reason, the refusal to allow Broadmoor Memphis an opportunity to display the nativity scene because the display is religious is a violation of First Amendment rights." Christmas Project, the law firm says it has contacted more than 10,300 school districts nationwide this year to inform them of what is legal regarding religious expression at Christmastime. |
| www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47788 com The mayor of a Memphis suburb today asked the staff of a local library to allow the public display of a full nativity scene after officials had barred figurines representing Mary, Joseph, Jesus and the wise men, saying their presence would be "inappropriate." Memphis Library system resulted in a nativity scene that included just three farm animals and a shepherd boy. The controversy arose when Brandi Chambless, a member of the music ministry at Broadmoor Memphis Church, submitted an announcement for display on the Bartlett Branch Library's community shelves regarding the church's upcoming Christmas show. Library officials accepted the announcement but told Chambless that she would have to remove the "inappropriate" figures of the baby Jesus, Joseph, Mary and the wise men from an accompanying nativity scene and limit it to farm animals alone. "Now we've got a bunch of barnyard animals in our display. We've got a sheep, a goat, a cow," Chambless said last night on the Fox News Channel's "O'Reilly Factor." This morning, Bartlett Mayor Keith McDonald stepped into the fray and asked the library to allow the entire nativity set to be displayed. "We felt it was kind of odd to have a partial display," Ray Rainey, chief administrative officer for the City of Bartlett, told WND. Rainey indicated he was trying to contact Chambless to let her know of the mayor's action. He also left a message at the Broadmoor Church telling a receptionist "they can feel free to come over to the Bartlett Library and complete their nativity scene if they'd like to do that." The community shelves have traditionally been open to groups and individuals for the display of announcements, advertisements and other items as a means of providing information to the community. "It truly is ridiculous that we even have to discuss whether a nativity scene can be displayed at Christmas," said Alliance Defense Fund senior legal counsel Nate Kellum. "Libraries are supposed to encourage free expression and thought. Government officials do not have the authority to pick and choose which items in a Christmas nativity scene are acceptable for display." ADF had written a letter to library officials saying the display submitted by Chambless in no way violates the US Constitution. |
| csua.org/u/ehw -> news.google.com/news?sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&q=nativity+library+memphis+jesus+Chambless&btnG=Search+News Jesus Will Be Allowed in Nativity Display WMC-TV, TN - Dec 7, 2005 ... requested the library put back the nativity scene at the Bartlett Branch library and the library is going ... Bartlett library keeps baby Jesus out of nativity display WMC-TV, TN - Dec 6, 2005 ... the display announcing Christmas programs at her church, Broadmoor Memphis. Holy family, Magi nixed from nativity WorldNetDaily, OR - Dec 6, 2005 ... the music ministry at Broadmoor Memphis Church, submitted ... Library officials accepted the announcement but told ... Nativity sparks debate Bartlett Express, TN - Dec 16, 2005 ... the ADF presented a lawsuit to the Memphis and Shelby ... Library and Public Information Center, library administrators refused to allow the nativity scene ... Nativity censored Washington Times, DC - Dec 7, 2005 ... Church wanted to include a small Nativity scene on the Memphis/Shelby County ... Library officials accepted Brandi Chambless' announcement but, according to the ... Tennessee Library Resurrects Creche Exhibit American Libraries Online, DC - Dec 16, 2005 ... Wilson, MSCPL assistant director for library advancement, said in the December 9 Memphis Commercial Appeal. Officials objected despite display of Menorah, Christmas tree WorldNetDaily, OR - Dec 8, 2005 ... The prohibition by the Memphis Library system resulted in ... Library officials accepted the announcement but told ... In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 10 already displayed. |
| washingtonpost.com -> www.washingtonpost.com/ Numbers, History Cast Shadow on Bush Hopes Despite close horse race with Kerry, president's approval ratings trail those of predecessors who won reelection. Soldier Details Iraq Abuse Defendant in prison scandal gives account of detainee treatment, offers to plead guilty. IN MOVIES New releases: "Troy," "Breakin' All the Rules," "Young Adam," "Godzilla: Uncut," "Word Wars," "With All Deliberate Speed." IN STYLE Fox issued a stunning news release for a reality special called "Seriously, Dude, I'm Gay" in which, two heterosexual men will try to convince people that they are gay. |
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