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| 2005/12/21-23 [Consumer/Camera] UID:41101 Activity:low |
12/21 Camera advice. I want to get into medium format for *CHEAP*
preferablely $400 including a light meter. Right now, only thing
fit the bill is Chinese made Seagull. Since none of my 35mm gears
were bought it new, I am certainlly don't mind getting an used camera.
Aside from built-in light meter which I dont think I can get given
the price constraint, I would like to have following features:
* single action for film advance
* shutter speed and apature info in view finder
* use standard film, 120 or 220. I can live with 120 alone.
* less than 25 years old.
Any recommendation on what kind of used TLR I should get? what are
the good and cheap models? What kind of caveat I should watch out?
and finally, I want to buy a cheap light meter along with it. any
recommendations and pointers? thanks kngharv
\_ quick google search:
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00ERjv&tag=
ebay revealed the Hasselblad 500C/M starter kits (used) for ~$600.
ebay also shows a lot of Kiev cameras, for ~$250. If price is
a big issue, the Kiev's might work well. I figure it's nice to
work on a Hasselblad knockoff as you can eventually switch to the
real thing.
\_ also: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=medium+format+starter+kit
and http://medfmt.8k.com/mf/budget.html
\_ thanks all. I am leaning toward Yashica 124 now.
\_ I was in the same situation a bit back. I ended getting the
Yashicamat LM. I've had some fun with it. You have to be very
careful with film advance. I've heard that Yashica's film advance
aren't smooth as Rollei's, and it seems right in my case. If I
advance too fast, it won't advance evenly. Make sure you understand
that there's Yashica set of models and Yashica-MAT set of models.
They may have the same model number and whatnot, but will be
different. Yashicamat 124 is really popular and fetch a premium on
ebay these days. So if you can live with just 120, you can save
money by going with the LM or the like as I did. This is a good
info site on Yashica TLRs:
http://www.williamsphotographic.com/yashica.html
\_ LOL. I think i can fetch an ok condition Yashica 124G for $210.
Then I need to send it to get it cleaned and adjusted (especially
adjust the light meter for the non-mercury), adding a lens
hood, it will be more than $400 :p How do you deal with
mercury battery issue?
\_ If you don't mind have a viewfinder camera instead of a TLR, check
out the Holga cameras at B&H. New ones are selling for less than
$50.
\_ Holgas are a different breed. People like them for having a
sharp center/blurred edges as well as the looks the lightleaks
create. You can easily get past the lightleak issue with some
black artist/masking tapes. That said, an unmodified Holga
should go for no more that $25 new unless you want the hotshoe.
\_ Doesn't medium format development and printing cost a lot? Even if
you get a camera for cheap, medium format photography still won't be
cheap overall.
\_ none of my gear cost more than $300 per piece, but the
development for one trip can easily cost more than that. This
is why I rather spend the money on developing, scanning, and
printing films than drop thousands on a camera. --OP
\_ Just curious, why do you want to get into medium format? I
was told that the the aspect ratios in medium format (3:4,
1:1, 6:7) are more pleasing than the 2:3 ratio in 35mm. But
then I thought I can crop develop & print 35mm pictures for
cheap and then crop them to the medium format ratios. I
inherited a Yashica D from my uncle a year ago, and I still
haven't shot anything with it yet. |
| 4/3 |
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| www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00ERjv&tag= What would be a good starter kit for a new user in terms of price a nd simplicity of use? I'm currently using some old Voigtlander folders f or my MF I would rather start out with as little investment as possible so that if I decide it's not for me I can get out with a minimum loss. Are any of the Hasselblad knock offs worth looking into? A CF version lens would be prefera ble for most people, but an old C would be cheaper. The CF is easier for most people to use, and replacement parts for the old C lenses are gett ing scarce, if not unavailable. If you will be shooting with flash a lot, you may consider one of the 503 bodies which have TTL OTF (thru the lens/off the film) flash metering f or those flash systems using the SCA standard. A good investment is the 4th or 5th edition of Wildi's The Hasselblad Man ual. in contrast the Bay50 filters that go with the older C lenses are very cheap. Second, if you plan at some point to use extension tubes and/or lenses greater than 150mm in focal length, y ou may want to consider a body such as the 501CM or 503CW that has the G MS (gliding mirror system) to prevent viewfinder cutoff. I started with a 500CM and added a 501CM as back-up for just that reason. The A24 magazines are meant ex clusively for 220 films, right? Since 220 stock appears to be very diffi cult to find (and for rather few emulsions only) - A12 magazines appear to be the better alternative... Oh, and another one: On a given body both types of magazines w ill be 100% compatible, most of all flange-to-film distance-wise, right? the A24 is calibrated to handle t he thicker roll so that you get 24 evenly spaced exposed frames. In a pi nch you could indeed load 120 into the A24, but the spacing would be off and my understanding is that you'd get fewer than 12 exposures. A12, A2 4 and A16 backs are all interchangeable with the 500 series bodies. If you shoot lan dscapes, skip it and go straight to a 50mm Distagon. If you shoot portra its, skip it, and go straight to a 150/180 Sonnar. I actually enjoy my P lanar, but there's no reason everyone must have one. There is a very good reason they are dumped on eBay and in other places t oo, and fetch almost no money at all: the comments about 220 film being in plentiful supply forget to mention that the choice in emulsions alway s has been small, compared to what is available in 120 film, and that 22 0 film always has been difficult to find as well. There may still be som e emulsions available in 220 size in one or two places, yes. So get an A24 magazine, if you want one to complete a collection. I thought it meant thinner film to stay compatible with camer as that would allow a fixed roll diameter only... Plus, subsequently I t hought it just meant a different pressure plate in the A24 mags - but ap parently I was misinformed. BTW, I think the 80 Planar route is an economical as well as very satisfa ctory way to get used to both, MF and square format. No effects added to the image by unusual angles of view. Just plain ol d '40 degrees', and the 'normal' subject distances. Using the standard lens makes you put real w ork into creating good pictures. None of the ready-made, out-of-the-box 'sweeping views' or 'concentrated attention' wide angles of telephotos p roduce (and which, sadly, is the only thing many photos have going for t hem. So by all means: make the standard lens your first lens. Let it force you to concentrate on creating pictures first. Then add the lenses you find you really must have to progress from there. The traditional set, by the way, is the 80 mm standard lens, the 50 mm wi de angle, and the 150 mm short telephoto. So spacing mechanisms (which work on assumptions about what length of film will wind on a roll - of a given, but changing, diam eter - per revlution of that roll) have to differ. In Hasselblad magazines, the film position is determined by the things th e pressure plate press the film against. Thinner film or thicker film, b acking paper or not, makes no difference. So the pressure plate is the s ame in Hasselblad 120 and 220 magazines. PS Where it reads "wide angles OF telephotos" in my previous post, it should read "wide angles OR telephotos". A different mag necessary just because of that design flaw? According to c) frames should be overlapping quite visibly... Hmm, inspite of the generous responses so far I think I will have to do m y own testing. Although I actually got myself the 50/80/150 set (35/50/90 being my preferred 35mm primes, w hich cover 95% of my photography), the standard lens has remained the mo st appealing. Tha t position does not change when film is thicker or thinner. So as long a s the pressure plate is pushing the film in position, there's absolutely no need for an adjustment of film gate position (quite the contrary). The pressure plate needs to push the film into position. But that does not mean it needs to push so hard that using a thicker film would become a problem. When loaded correctly, there is no p roblem: 12 6x6 frames will fit with room to spare (you could easily fit 13 frames on a 120 roll), and spacing may not be strictly even, but ther e will be enough separation between the frames. What also can be done, is make assumptions about how thick a roll is with a given amount of film on it. It sounds complicated, but the relation b etween diameter and length of film that 'winds on' with one full revolut ion is not complicated. Once this relation is fixed in the shape of a ca m, it works, and again, and again, and... But you have to load the film correctly (set the start marks), or else the amount of film on (ie the diameter of) the take up spool is 'wrong' right from the start. d) No, it follows that 120 film isn't spaced correctly when run through a 220 magazine (different assumption - different cam). Frames will not overlap (which would be really bad), but, on the contrary , spacing is very wide (220, lacking the backing paper is thinner. So wh en winding an equal length of film, the spool's diameter will grow less fast with 220 film, hence the transport mechanism allows more turns. Mor e turns will space the frames on the 'unexpected' thicker 120 film wider ), and you cannot expect 12 frames to not fit on a 120 roll anymore. Just help me out on this one here: So when winding an equal length of film, the spool's diameter will grow l ess fast with 220 film, hence the transport mechanism allows more turns. You were saying film transport aka length-of-film-per-frame aka frame spa cing is measured in the process of winding based on the diameter increas e on the exposed spool side, right? Ie, the slower the increase the mo re turns "allowed" - the faster the increase, the less turns possible. Either the above assumption is correct - or there would have to be a fixe d amount of turns per mag type - which would contradict the "diameter me asurement" hypothesis... You start w ith an (almost) empty spool, and corresponding small diameter, and ditto circumference. Ignoring the increase of diameter and circumference for the moment, one full turn will wind on a length of film equal to the cir cumference of the spool. But winding on film will increase the diameter/circumference, and thus ha ve an effect on the length of film transported. And since the diameter a nd circumference increase, the length of film transported during one ful l turn increases too. So the number of turns needed to transport a given , set length of film should decrease with increasing diameter and circum ference of the take up spool. Now should the diameter and circumference of the spool increase more than expected, faster than allowed for in the 'regulator cam', because you a re using a thicker film (film with paper, instead of just film), the inc rease in length of film transported by one full turn isn't compensated f or by the cam (which, being set for the thinner 220, still expresses the assumption that the circumference of the spool is less than it actually is. So the length of film transported is more than it should be, spacing gets wider. I started with the "normal" 80mm, and later on I added the 50 FLE. I used the Hasselblad 80 Planar for years and even ... |
| groups.google.com/groups?q=medium+format+starter+kit Best Option for Entry-level Medium Format I'm seriously thinking of getting into medium format and am shopping arou nd for the ... Pro myself, no problems with it, but for a basic new starter kit (body, back ... I am interested in getting into Medium Format, but I have no idea whe re to start. I was wondering if anyone had a suggestion on a budget level starter kit. What film format do you require, just 35mm or does medium format beck on? Too many people rush out and buy 'starter kits' or other fairly basic goods that t hey ... FS Rolleicord - Great Starter Medium Format Includes 16 exposure kit which gives you the option of changing from a 12 exposure 6 X 6 format to rectangular 4 X 55 format. Starter Hasselblad kit: How much $ I'm looking to get into medium format photography, the only thing is that because i do a lot of basketball photogography, i would need the hasselbad with t he ... |
| medfmt.8k.com/mf/budget.html Kodak 620 Special (Chris Perez, low $$, hi resolution) Q Isn't medium format on a budget a contradiction in terms? You can buy a surprising range of medium format equipment on almost a ny budget. latest model systems used by professional photographers and serious a mateur medium format photographers too. Q Should I sell off my 35mm camera and put all my money and effort into MF? Your 35mm SLR camera is able to do many things that are difficul t or impossible to do with most medium format cameras. Many 35mm lenses have few or no equal in medium format, especially on a budget, such as c ircular fisheyes, long telephotos, and many zooms. Q What is the usual sequence of MF cameras for a limited budget buyer? But medium format doesn't limit you to one format or one composition option. Explor ing those options is a major part of the fun and learning in store for y ou in medium format photography! The finder is fixed and interchangeable insert s are used rather than removable backs. But the kit mounts the various m amiya 645 optics, which are relative bargains on used gear markets. With the Seagull TLRs, try to get a four e lement lens version (4A-1) over lesser quality three element ones (4A-10 3 and 4B). In the USA, new importers have heavily advertised new Seagull TLRs, but raised the prices to over $200 (in mid-2002). I recommend a u sed Rolleicord, Autocord, Yashicamat or other used TLR for circa $100 as a better buy. Polaroid cameras are often forgotten, but they are also medium format . Some models can produce B&W negatives using p/n film types up to 4x5 i nches in size for darkroom work. Despite Polaroid's bankruptcy (mid 2002 ), we can expect some Polaroid style films will still be available from Fuji in the future. Medium format used gear prices have dropped on the low and mid range pro gear by up to 50% since the digital camera craze and economic downturn o f early 2000 AD So this is a great time to be buying used medium forma t gear, as prices have seldom been lower. This entry level camera puts tremendous price pressure s on used and unwarranteed MF gear. How can dealers reasonably expect to get $595 US$ for a used 25 year old Bronica S2A kit, when $750 will buy them a brand new in warranty auto-metering Mamiya 645E SLR? Much of the used MF gear is not the latest top of the line pro items, but rather the "backup" lenses and bodies. certain repair parts, are being sold at prices as low as $400-$500 US$. The same lenses in th e late 1990s would have cost over $1,000 US$. Fortunately, many of these used older optics and bodies are precisely what entry level buyers are looking for! Dealers are getting out of used gear sales, with some major players (like Wall Street Camera) exiting the business entirely. Ebay provided a mean s to dump a lot of marginal stock at low advertising cost. Hasselblad USA sold lots of demo gear to generate cash (shortly before the sale of Hasselblad to Shriro of Hong Kong in 2003). In other words, we are seeing a lot of one time sell-offs of dealer stoc k and demo gear, further depressing prices. Only you can decide whether you would rather buy a new MF camera in warra nty, such as the Mamiya 645E for under $750 US$ or buy a used camera kit at today's equally depressed used gear prices. The market is changing r apidly, and an industry shakeout may be underway too. But chances are go od that you will get a bargain in MF gear at today's depressed new and u sed gear prices. Photonet also has a popular set of lis tings for individuals selling or buying gear. You can also place free wa nted to buy ads on both these areas, possibly leading to tips or offers to sell you the wanted item cheaply! The best medium format lenses from the 1950s are still very impressive to day in color or monochrome, and by the 1970's or so almost all MF lenses were good for all film stocks, with the exceptions of a few ultra wides and maybe the occasional "dog". Roger Hicks and Frances Schultz in Medi um and Large Format Handbook, pp. You can't expect to get the same quality in a $550 US Kiev 88 as in a new Rollei SLR, the most expensive SLR ever made according to the Rollei ad s The Kiev lenses have good reputations, and are generally held to be v ery good value for the money. The Kiev bodies can be good workhorses, if you get a good one. You will also see a number of laments from users wi th various Kiev body related problems on USENET. But while vocal, they a re clearly the minority of users. Kiev USA reportedly does additional quali ty checking and provides warranty support that you might find valuable. The Kiev-88 post -cold war cameras are better and have better body flare control than the Soviet era models. Similarly, the latest lenses have multi-coating, but at a 50%+ increase in price. Even if you don't buy a Kiev body, you might find their inexpensive lense s useful as they reportedly fit the older Hasselblad 1000f (Kiev 88) and Pentacon 6 (Kiev 60) mounts in some models (with minor thread machining required according to some posters). The Kiev Zodiak 30mm lens is uniqu e in being an inexpensive fisheye in 6x6 format. An Kiev lens mount adap ter for Mamiya 645 and Pentax 645 focal plane cameras may be worth check ing out too ($30 up). The Chinese TLRs have reputations for highly variable quality, often bad, and the three element lens optics leave much to be desired. The better four element optics of the later SeaGull 4A-1 are harder to find. Porter 's Camera Store was clearing out their Seagull TLR stock in late 1997, s o it isn't clear how much longer they will be in production. But again, a good one can be found in light use now and then. The Lubitel optics are better than the bodies, which tend to have film transport and light leak problems. Repairs are also obviously a problem on any TLR, but especial ly so for a budget under $100 US model. These cameras and are among the lowest cost new medium format c ameras you can buy on a budget ($260 US and up). Poor quality control is often blamed for many problems with these cameras , and sometimes deservedly so. Yet many of the reported problems with th ese cameras arise from failing to read and follow the user manual cautio ns or mis-loading film. Still, be sure to get a return warranty and don' t be put off by a glitch or two with even your new camera system buy. Q What about the other cameras such as the Diana and Holgas and other po int and shoot cameras? The toy cameras are just that, and have as many problems and defects as y ou can think of, and then some! Polaroid cameras are a little appreciated medium format option. The trick with Polaroid cameras is to use black and white p/n films, such as type 665, which give both a positive print and a negative. The print only provides about 20 to 25 pairs per mm, about half the quality of mo st 4x5 drug store enlargements. But the negative has a superlative 150 l ines per mm, enabling great enlargement with a quality lens and darkroom setup. The type 665 film has an ASA of 75, but the negatives have to be processed after exposure in an 18% sodium sulfite solution to preserve them. The resulting negative is nearly 3''x4 3/8'' and can easily be enlarged 2 0x or even 25x with minimal grain. Best of all, you can buy polaroid cam eras with electronic exposure controls that take the type 665 p/n film f or well under $50 US (eg, model 250 polaroid). The main disadvantage is the cost of the film (over a dollar a photo) and the limitation to black and white, plus the need to process the negativ e to preserve it. Many medium format models are panoramic or superwide cameras that are highly specialized and definitely not budget oriented models. Q How can I check out a used or new camera or lens before buying? Q How can we narrow the possible medium format camera options to a usefu l range? The number and diversity of used medium format cameras is HUGE! But it is pretty easy to cut down the thousands of cameras into a more limited an d useful group for current user cameras. In general, pre-WWII cameras ar e collector's items, and either in collections or in rather poor shape f or use as a working camera too. Many other cameras are so rare that... |
| www.williamsphotographic.com/yashica.html Links The New Yashica TLR FAQ Compiled By Peter Williams The Yashica TLR's seem to be a quite popular topic for discussion th ese days, and I have received a number of e-mails regarding them. As ent ry-level medium format cameras, they are still considered among the best and, according to some people, are better values than some of the early Rollei TLRs. While I don'e quite agree that the Yashicas are in the sam e league as Rollei (nor would anyone else who as handled both), their re putation as good entry-level medium format cameras is well deserved. The secret to the success of the Yashicas is their reasonable qualit y, decent lenses, and relatively inexpensive prices. Consider that you c an find a Yashica D for $125 or less and that the Yashica A can be had f or $50 or less, and it's easy to understand why people give them serious consideration if budgets are a concern. However, when you take into acc ount that both the 3 and 4 element lens designs found on the Yashicas ar e of very reasonable quality, their prices look more and more like barga ins. My thanks to Robert M, who pointed me to a few very good sources on the web for these cameras. I've tried to condense that information and put it all in one place to make life easier. This FAQ is a work in progr ess and I welcome any information on these cameras you might have. The Lenses: Filters used: To the best of my knowledge, all Yashica models take Bay I filters. Tri-Lausar & Yashimar: Early 3-element designs, neither of which seem to have very good reputations. Yashikor: A 3 element design, this lens is coated and offers reasonable p erformance. Considering that th e cameras with this lens are generally available for under $100 (with so me like the Yashica A as low as $25-50), it's a good bargain for general use. Yashinon (aka Luxamor): A 4 element design, said to be of Tessar formula. Offers very good performance, which some feel is on par with the Rollei Tessars and Xenars. While of good quality, I'm not convinced it matches the Rollei's lenses - one Yashicamat 124G I used had very questionable sharpness in the corners (even stopped down). I probably got a bad examp le, but I have heard a few others complain that the corners can be a lit tle soft. Flare can also be a problem, so shading the lens during exposu re or using a lens hood is advisable. That being said, it's still a good lens and offers improved performance over the Yashikor. submit site fe edback if you have any information (number of elements, models used with the lens, etc). The Cameras: NOTE: Certain of the early models (A,C,D,635, and a few others) do NOT ha ve cable release sockets. They require an adaptor to take a cable releas e - the same as those required for early Nikon and Leica caneras (someti mes called a "Leica nipple"). Yashica A: The most inexpensive of all the Yashica TLR cameras, it comes with the 3 element Yashikor lens and a shutter with speeds from 1/25 sec to 1/300 plus B and X sync. Film advance is manual using the red-window system, and the shutter must be cocked before each exposure. Because of the manual film advance and limited shutter speeds, this camera is not particularly valuable and can be had for $50 or less - making it a great bargain for inexpensive entry into medium format. Very similar overall to the Yashica A, but with levers on either side of the lens to adjust shutter and aperature. Yashica C: Shutter speeds expanded to 1 second through 1/300, and it also offers semi-automatic film advance - to advance the film, you press a b utton on the advance knob and then advance the film. The camera will aut omatically advance to the next frame. Yashica D: An improvement of the Model C The shutter has speeds from 1 s ec to 1/500, plus B, timer, and MX sync. As with the A, B, and C, the sh utter must be cocked manually before each exposure. Yashica E: A somewhat rare autoexposure-only model based on the D, this m odel is best avoided as reliability of the metering system is highly sus pect and there is absolutely no manual control available. Yashica LM: An early model in the Yashica series, the LM was the first to offer a built-in meter. The lens used is the better Yashinon, and it ha s full MXV sync on the Copal shutter. Yashica 635: The 635 is one of the more interesting models in the Yashica line. Featuring the 3 element Yashikor, this camera was designed as a d ual format camera. It takes both 120 film for 6x6 but also 35mm in 20 or 36 exposures. Like the D, film advance is semi-automatic and offers the same range of shutter speeds, flash sync, and self timer. The only diff iculty with this model is finding a camera with complete 35mm conversion kit. Like the D, later models can be found with the Yashinon lens. Yashicamat: With the 4 element Yashinon lens (desingated Luxamor on early models), this camera is one to look for. Aside from the better lens, th e camera also automatically cocks the shutter when the film is advanced, just like a Rolleiflex. The Copal shutter offers speeds from 1 sec to 1 /500 plus B and MX flash sync. In all around value, the Yashicamat is pr obably the best in the line as it offers all the significant upgrades in lens and body, except for 220 capability (which most photographers rare ly use) and a built-in meter. Yashicamat-LM: Essentially, the LM is a regular Yashicamat, but with an a dded uncoupled exposure meter sensitive from ISO 6 to 400. By today's st andards, this is not a great ISO range for the meter, but in its day it was top technology and still covers the majority of film speeds commonly used (ISO 100 and 400). Yashicamat-EM: Pretty much the same as the LM, but with a different meter configuration. Yashica 24: The first of the modern Yashica TLRs, it offers a meter coupl ed to the aperature and shutter dials, giving the user a match needle me tering system. The drawback - it uses 220 film only and is hard to find. But, if you shoot 220 and can find one, the price is often very reasona ble. Yashica 12: Offered a year after the 24, the 12 is the same camera except it uses 120 film. A great value as it doesn't grab the same price as th e 124 models, but it is a hard model to find. Yashicamat 124: The Yashicamat 124 adds switchable 120/220 capability to the Yashica 12. Th is camera provides one of the most inexpensive medium format cameras to give 220 capability, and with the built-in meter is an excellent all-in- one TLR at reasonable cost (although prices are starting to get a little inflated for this model). Yashicamat 124-G: The last Yashica TLR produced, the only change from the previous 124 was to gold-plate the meter contacts. While a good camera, prices have become grossly inflated recently. I recently saw a Yashicam at 124-G new in box sell for over $400, which was severely overpriced co nsidering you can find a Rolleiflex 35E with meter and Planar lens in t he same price range. If you find one for $250 or less, the 124-G is a go od buy, but the moment the price goes over this mark a Rollei or older M amiya would likely be better options. Other Models: There are a few models for which I have no information. They are the "44" cameras, and I do not include them he re as I don't have very much information on them and 127 film is no long er available. |