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| 5/24 |
| 2005/12/20-22 [Computer/SW/Apps/Media, Computer/HW/Drives] UID:41100 Activity:nil |
12/20 Hi guys. The newbs I play Texas hold 'em with require you to use both
your hole cards; however, according to the official rules you have the
option to use none, just one, or both of your hold cards to form your
5-card hand.
Requiring use of both hole cards makes straights and flushes harder of
course. Does anyone out there play like my newb friends?
\_ god your friends are noobs. they should look into 7-card stud
to get a clue.
\_ Your friends are idiots. Maybe they're thinking of Omaha?
Another question: Let's say all bets have been called and there is
more than one player at the showdown. Can a player just fold at
this point without showing their cards? I think the answer is no.
\_ obdragonpokerlittlemythmarkerskevebeatssensenantekidreference
\_ In one hand, no less!!!1!one
\_ Outstanding. I'm glad I'm not the only one.
\_ no. players paid to see his cards.
\_ maybe we're both wrong
http://www.poker1.com/mcu/rules/b_article11.asp
This page says that you need to show your cards to win (duh), but
there doesn't seem to be a rule that says you need to show
if you're a loser.
This happens to match my memory of movies where poker is
played ... someone shows a kick-ass hand, and everyone throws
their hands face-down.
\_ The people I play with use a rule where the winner can request
to see the losers' cards if a river bet was callde.
to see the losers' cards if a river bet was called.
\_ In Vegas you can just fold, but I think the above person is
correct that the winner can ask to see the hand. In Vegas
'cards speak' which means if you are an idiot who says he has a
flush when in reality you have a royal flush then the dealer
will call it a royal flush (the best hand). For this to
happen people usually just show their cards and keep their
mouths shut (lest be proven the total morons that they are,
although everyone makes mistakes). The moral here is not to
fold without showing your cards at the showdown. Some people
think there's an advantage to mucking the cards, but I don't
bother if I stayed in that long. Added: doing some research shows
bother if I stayed in that long. Added: Doing some research shows
that while legal to ask to see the hand it is considered VERY
BAD etiquette and you may be asked to leave.
BAD etiquette and you may be asked to leave. Here's more:
http://www.tommyangelo.com/articles/i_want_to_see_that_hand.htm
\_ Which one has to show first then? I think everyone is
just as obligated to show, fuck that etiquette.
\_ According to the url, if no one wants to show, then the
first person to show is the last guy who bet/raised during
the river round (i.e., the aggressor shows first). if
everyone checked for the river round or everyone was
already all-in before the river round, then the guy to the
left of the dealer shows first. People then show in a
clockwise order from whichever player showed first.
Also, anyone can elect to show first, at which point others
can show if they want to (in any order).
Then again you can have a house rule that says if you
get to the river round, you MUST show even if you're a
loser, which is what you meant by "fuck that etiquette".
Another user who posted above has a similar house rule ...
\_ The newb who folded at the showdown did so because he was
bluffing and didn't want to be further embarrassed by showing
the cards he had.
\_ you can fold at any time as long as it is your turn without showing
your cards (even if there is no bet in front of you)
\_ This wasn't in question. |
| 5/24 |
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| www.poker1.com/mcu/rules/b_article11.asp Upon completion of action on the final betting round, the dealer shall as k the players to show their hands. If more than one player contests a po t through the final betting round, the pot will be awarded to the best h and pursuant to the rules of the game upon a showdown of hands. If there has been a bet but no raise on the final betting round, then the player who made the bet shall show his hand first, followed by other players s till contesting the pot, in clockwise rotation. If there has been a bet and raise or multiple raises on the final betting round, then the person who made the final raise shall show his hand first. If there has been n o bet on the final round then the showdown begins with the player who ha d the obligation of first action on the final betting round--the player under the gun in draw and board games or the player with the highest boa rd in stud games. In the interests of efficiency and speeding up the game, a player who is reasonably certain he has the winning hand should turn over his hand imm ediately, regardless of the order of showdown. If a player does so, then other players at the showdown who can beat that hand should also turn t heir hands over immediately. All cards in a player's hand must be shown face-up on the table to be awa rded any part of the pot. Note that an exception to this rule may exist in Texas Hold'em, depending on which rule the house uses relative to pla ying the board. At showdown the dealer shall read all hands where cards are exposed and l aid on the table face-up. However the dealer shall never ask a player to turn up all his cards and shall only read cards that are shown. The dea ler shall not read hands that are exposed but not laid on the table. The hand is to be read according to the exposed cards only. If it appears t hat a hand which does not have all cards exposed is entitled to the pot, the dealer shall advise that player that he must see a complete hand to award the pot. The winning hand must have all cards exposed and account ed for. If a player who loses the pot exposes only part of his hand, the dealer shall kill it without exposing the rest of the hand. A hand that is turned over at the showdown is ranked according to the car ds that are in it. If the hand is turned over then an incorrect assessme nt of a hand's rank or a verbal concession is not binding at showdown--t he cards speak for themselves. Although verbal declarations a s to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a h and with the intent of causing another player to discard his hand is une thical and will result in forfeiture of the pot. If a player verbally de clares a better hand than he has, causing an opponent to muck his hand a nd if there is ANY suspicion that such declaration was an intentional pl oy, the floorperson at his discretion may award the pot to the player wh o mucked his hand. Any player at the table may--and should--read a hand which is exposed face up on the table if he sees that the hand is misrea d and the pot about to be improperly awarded. A player shall not read a hand that is exposed so that he can see it but which is not laid face up on the table, nor shall a player encourage any other player to turn his hand face-up so that it is eligible for the pot. Chip declare - a metho d for determining whether a hand is eligible for the high, low or both e nds of the pot in hi-lo games - is a violation of the cards speak princi ple and shall not be permitted in public cardrooms. In the case of one or more tied hands at the showdown, the pot shall be d ivided accordingly proportionately, with odd chips allocated as set fort h in Article 9 of Caro & Cooke's Rules. Suits shall in no way influence awarding any part of a pot. If one or more players are all-in in a multi-way contested pot, then the side pots shall be awarded first. If there is one all-in player eligible for the main pot only then he shall show his hand last. Players shall not be entitled to see a called hand except in cases where there is a reasonable suspicion of collusion, in which case the floorper son shall be called over for examination of the called hand. However the traditional rule, which was d esigned to prevent collusion, has not served its original purpose. Askin g to see called hands slows down the game, causes resentment and impedes action. The first alternate rule continues to be the most prevalent, bu t in the interests of the game it should be completely done away with. At the showdown, any player who was dealt into the hand has the right to ask to see any called hand. Before turning over the han d the dealer shall kill the hand by touching it to the muck. If the hand is not killed it is still live and eligible to win the pot. In high lim it games, the right to see a called hand is limited to situations where a floorperson is present for the request. The purpose of this rule is to protect against collusion, not to satisfy a player's curiosity or get a read on a player's style of play, or worst of all to intentionally irri tate a player. Abuse of this rule is very bad for poker as it kills acti on and causes resentment. Many people favor retention of this rule becau se it makes new players comfortable that they are not being cheated. Only players who have been in on the turn in hold em games, fifth street in stud games, and for the draw in draw games shall have the right to see a called hand; There is no right to se e a called losing hand under any circumstances in head's up play. No pot shall be awarded until all losing hands have been mucked or killed . In all situations (including those of partially exposed hands at showd own) where a player asks to see another player's hand, the dealer shall kill the hand first, by turning it face down and touching it to the muck . A hand that has been k illed and then exposed is not eligible to win the pot, except and unless the winner of the pot has asked to see it, in which case it does remain eligible to win the pot. A player with a hand he believes to be the winning hand is responsible to hold onto his own hand until the pot is awarded. No player with an inte rest in the pot should release his hand to the dealer until his portion of the pot has been pushed to him. The dealer shall gather in all cards except the winning hand, then push t he pot to the player who holds the winning hand, then collect the cards from the player who won the pot. After all losing hands have been mucked , the winning hand shall remain face-up until the pot is awarded. In but ton games, the dealer shall then advance the button. A player shall neve r be permitted to reach into the center of the table and pull the pot to himself. If after final action a hand is shown to one player at the table, then an y other player at the table may ask to see the hand, and it shall be sho wn. If during the course of play of the hand a player flashes his hand t o another player before mucking it, any player may ask that the hand be shown to all at the table, but it shall not be shown until after the end of the hand. Once the hand is mixed in the muck, however, the dealer sh all not retrieve it. Upon request by a player who was dealt into the han d, if a hand has been shown to one but not all, the dealer shall protect the muck so that the exposed hand cannot be stuffed into it before bein g shown to all. After showdown and pushing the pot as previously set forth, the Dealer sh all soft scramble the muck, hands and deck stub. Discarded hands shall b e stuffed into the stub or muck and not placed on the top or bottom of t he stub. Once the dealer has commenced the shuffle for the next hand the n all rights to a decision regarding the previous hand are forfeited. No te that the scramble or soft shuffle is the act that constitutes the end of the hand and the first riffle of the deck is the beginning of the ne w hand. |
| www.tommyangelo.com/articles/i_want_to_see_that_hand.htm I Want to See That Hand We have an old rule that is routinely abused and does not work. Ill call this th e I want to see that hand rule (IWTSTH). This rule was invented with a worthy purpose to enable players to protect themselves against collu sion. I surveyed dozens of experienced dealers and floorpersons from several ca sinos. Then I asked, When players ask to see call ed hands at the showdown, how often is collusion suspected? Ive talked to hundreds of players over the years about IWTSTH. Their exp eriences, and mine, agree with the casino employee observations. When a young or inexperienced player employs IWTSTH with no malice, I occ asionally probe. I always learn that, to them, IWTSTH is just part of t he game. they either have no idea, or they reply, To be able to see how people play. They see nothing wrong with asking to see a hand when they do not suspect collu sion. The misuse of IWTS TH spreads through innocence, ignorance, and silence. Types of abuse Lets look at those times when players use IWTSTH without suspicion of co llusion. In the hands of the ill-mannered, IWTSTH is used to embarrass, agitate or annoy other players, thereby generating bad vibes and tension. One player asks to see a hand at t he showdown, then the other player gets even by later asking to see th e initial abusers hand. If the initial use of IWTSTH was considered wrong or inappropria te, then how can the vindictive use be any less wrong? And, back on top ic, why do we have a rule that makes this coarse behavior legal and acce ptable? Here is a definition of one type of cheating at poker: The willful manufacture of information that is not available to all. One could say that using IWTSTH in order to gain information about how others play is not a manufacture of information that is not available t o all, since others could gain the same information simply by asking, a nd any revealed information is revealed to all. Most players, however, consider it bad etiquette to abuse IWTSTH. So the y dont ask to see hands, even when they are intensely curious, even whe n the information is potentially valuable. Those who do ask to see hand s do so when the information is most pertinent, thereby manufacturing us eful information of a type that is not available to those who feel bound by scruples never to ask. Its like the boxer who intentionally swings low against an opponent who never does. Many players think of poker as being, in part, a struggle to conceal info rmation. To them, and to me, abuse of IWTSTH is an infringement of priva cy rights. Ask any player how they feel after someone asked to see their hand, and theyll likely say they feel violated. The player on the button has pocket aces in a three -handed pot. On the river, the first player bets, the second player cal ls, and the aces call. The aces ask to see the second players hand, merely curious as to which of them had the best hand on the turn. Even if not compelled by IWTSTH, th e second player often shows his hand or tells the truth about what he ha d, that is, if he is the showing type. What if he made a hopeles s call on the river and is embarrassed? Or what if he had, say, a strai ght on the turn, got beat on the river, but just wants to get on to the next hand without a fuss? The Lucky Chances Casino rulebook mentions abuse of IWTSTH. Any seated p layer may request to see any and all active hands at the showdown. Howe ver, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. In practice it means that in order for an abuser to be stopped, he must abuse once, then abuse again soon after, then som eone must call a floorperson, and then the players will be protected fro m the abuser for some period of time, probably only that day. Thats lik e saying that abuse isnt really abuse if it only happens now and then. IWTSTH does not catch or deter cheaters Savvy collusion teams can easily sidestep IWTSTH by having all partners b ut one fold before the showdown. He signals his strength to his collusion partner, player C Pl ayer C has no pair and no draw. A and C then punish player B by jamming it up on the turn. No one can use IWTSTH to view Cs hand, no matter how great the suspicion of cheating. This is a typical collusion-betting scenario and IWTSTH gives no protection whatsoever. Some defend IWTSTH by saying that it deters cheaters in the same way that speed-limit laws deter speeders. thats why speed-limit laws dete r IWTSTH is not effective at catching colluders, rendering it ineffecti ve as a deterrent as well. Existing variations reveal something is wrong One variation is that only those players involved in a pot may ask to see hands at the showdown. This rule defeats the very purpose of IWTSTH by forbidding us from protecting the game whenever we happen to fold early . Because it drastically reduces oppo rtunities for IWTSTH to be used, thereby reducing opportunities for abus e The sole purpose of this variation is to reduce abuse of IWTSTH. The goofiest variation: If the betting on the river begins heads-up and t he winner asks to see the losers hand, the losers hand remains live an d can still win the pot if he has the best hand. This is another bizarre attempt to curb abuse of IWTSTH. The mere existence of these variations shows that the poker community is aware of the problem and is willing to change rules to fix IWTSTH. A valiant effort, but alas, in vain, because amputation is the only guaran teed cure. Summary Much writing and discussion centers on the growth of poker, how to make i t appealing to new players, how to make the public poker table a fair an d pleasant place. IWTSTH allows, and even encourages, petty behavior th at ranges from bad etiquette to unethical to just plain rude. Rules designed solely to protect the many against the few are inherently inconvenient. We tolerate the hass le because we like the peace of mind. With IWTSTH, we are also forced t o tolerate inconveniences, but we get nothing in return. Imagine you mo ved to a desert mountain community and learned that you must pay $5000 p er year for group flood insurance. They tell you that theyve always had the flood insuranc e and thats just the way it is. With IWTSTH, we are as stubborn as the mountain dwellers. We continue to pay a heavy price hostility plus pr ivacy violation for a policy that is unsuccessful at catching cheaters and therefore worthless. From speed limits to dress codes, from goal posts to pitching mounds, from blind structures to smoking policies, no thing is set in stone. Thank goodness for that, because flexibility spaw ns improvement. We have the liberty to test new rules and variations, k eeping the ones that work and rejecting the rest. The purpose of IWTSTH is to protect against collusion, yet it fails to do so. Further, it is often used, yet rarely used for its intended purpos e This rule is ineffective and has been abused to death. |