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| 2005/12/19-20 [Politics/Domestic/911] UID:41073 Activity:moderate |
12/19 http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm No abuses of the patriot act my ass. \_ No talk of abusing your ass! \_ I'm pretty anti-US PATRIOT act, but that's pretty damn mild. They "visited" him. Oh noes! They didn't detain him, arrest him, confiscate his stuff, or anything like that that I can see. It sounded like "you a terrorist? ok, just checking, our lame computer algorithm said you might be. be good, ttyl." \_ "The student, who was completing a research paper on Communism for Professor Pontbriand's class on fascism and totalitarianism, filled out a form for the request, leaving his name, address, phone number and Social Security number. He was later visited at his parents' home in New Bedford by two agents of the Department of Homeland Security, the professors said." It doesn't scare the hell out of you that he got a visit from DoHS for checking out a copy Mao's Little Red Book? What would scare you, a 4am door-knockdown and unlawful detention? \_ This should piss off conservatives since it's such a sensless waste of taxpayer money. Of course that would be if any of them actually believed in anything but power. \_ I agree. I can't believe that first they ARE monitoring and second that they would visit him? What exactly was the purpose of the visit? To check if he is a terrorist? How is that not a violation of the kid's civil rights (undue search and siezure?). How long before it turns into secret police and arrests? -!pp \_ That's unreasonable search and seizure, and asking him a few questions is neither a search nor a seizure. Also, the 4th mostly only applies to searches of your home; they didn't search his home did they? This doesn't scare me one bit. The gov. has been doing this sort of thing for decades. Better they monitor everything, than they not monitor. If you don't like monitoring, then don't do things that will be flagged by the filters. \_ Man, I can't tell if you're being facetious or not. What causes their filters to flag you? If you're serious, I seriously hope you get visited for something you consider innocuous. They say a moderate is a conservative with an illness in the family or a liberal who's been mugged; maybe a good Q&A session will cure you. \_ I expect to be visited every single day, so it won't bother me at all if and when they do visit. In fact, I expect to be incarcerated for extended periods w/o being charged or tried. I expected this even before 9/11. I live here in full knowledge of the possible drawbacks b/c I think there is no other place in the world that is even this good. Yes, the const. says that this sort of thing shouldn't happen, but no piece of paper can stand in the way of society. \_ So you've accepted that you live in a police state. I'm happy for you but I'm not willing to throw out what makes this country great. Everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) has something to hide. That's why freedom matters. to hide even if it isn't that big of a deal. That's why freedom matters. \_ I guess the differnece between us is that \_ I guess the difference between us is that you think there is something left to throw out, and I think that is is already gone out, and I think that it is already gone and can never be regained w/o giving up all of the benefits of science/technology. I would like the words of the BoR to mean something substantial, but I accept that the very nature of civilization prevents this. the very nature of modern civilization prevents this. \_ you're a moron. -tom \_ Thank you. \_ You always add so much to the motd. Keep up the good work! \_ Yes the government obviously has a large interest in monitoring what I read/think. We wouldn't want any dangerous opinions getting around. Sarcasm aside, using a terrorist threat to completely destroy our civil liberties is worse than the occasional terrorist attack. I would rather loose 10k people a year to \_ "lose". if you "loosed" that many people each year to terrorism there'd be a helluva lot of terrorists running around loose. terrorism rather than deprive 300 million people of freedom. \_ I don't think terrorism will destroy our civil liberties, b/c I think they were lost at the start of the cold war. I also do not believe that these liberties can be effectively regained in a technological society. \_ "If you don't like monitoring, then don't do things that will be flagged by the filters." <- This is hilarious! So, if the filters include "Harry Potter" books, and you happen to be a fan, you have to abstain reading those books in fear of being "monitored" and "visited"? What a load of crap. this sort of thing for decades. Who cares? You don't wan't to be monitored, don't do things that will cause their filters to flag you. \_ You can argue about how the world OUGHT to work or you can accept the reality of how it does work and get on w/ your life. The price of retrieving any piece of info is the fact that the gov may ask you about it. If you are not willing to pay that price, don't obtain the information. \_ Or I can stop replying to trolls. \_ This was my first thought. However, the abuse is not in the visiting, it's in the broad net cast by the listening. Consider that they correlated a travel history with an interlibrary loan of "The Little Red Book". Unless the man has some previous terrorist ties, this looks a lot like abuse to me. -emarkp \_ Possibly a hoax. See http://www.boingboing.net/2005/12/18/dhs_agents_visit_stu.html \_ Updated update. The reporter stands by the story and is trying to get the student to come forward. Same URL. \_ Cool! Keep the updates coming! -pp \_ If the kid is smart, he'll go about his life and not help make some reporter win a prize. |
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| www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-05/12-17-05/a09lo650.htm NEW BEDFORD -- A senior at UMass Dartmouth was visited by feder al agents two months ago, after he requested a copy of Mao Tse-Tung's to me on Communism called "The Little Red Book." Two history professors at UMass Dartmouth, Brian Glyn Williams and Robert Pontbriand, said the student told them he requested the book through the UMass Dartmouth library's interlibrary loan program. The student, who was completing a research paper on Communism f or Professor Pontbriand's class on fascism and totalitarianism, filled o ut a form for the request, leaving his name, address, phone number and S ocial Security number. He was later visited at his parents' home in New Bedford by two agents of the Department of Homeland Security, the profes sors said. The professors said the student was told by the agents that the book is on a "watch list," and that his background, which included sign ificant time abroad, triggered them to investigate the student further. The professors had been asked to comment on a report that Presi dent Bush had authorized the National Security Agency to spy on as many as 500 people at any given time since 2002 in this country. In the 1950s and '60s, during the Cultural Revolution in China, it was required reading. Although there are abridged versions available , the student asked for a version translated directly from the original book. Williams that the Homeland Security agents told him the book was on a "watch list." They brought the book with them, but did not leave it with the student, the p rofessors said. Williams said in his research, he regularly contacts people in Afghanistan, Chechnya and other Muslim hot spots, and suspects that some of his calls are monitored. |
| www.boingboing.net/2005/12/18/dhs_agents_visit_stu.html Sunday, December 18, 2005 DHS agents visit student over Little Red Book - HOAX DEBATE Widespread debate today over whether the South Coast Today story "DHS vis its student over Little Red Book" is a hoax, or contains unsubstantiated non-facts. Two history professors at UMass Dartmouth, Bri an Glyn Williams and Robert Pontbriand, said the student told them he r equested the book through the UMass Dartmouth library's interlibrary lo an program. The student, who was completing a research paper on Communism for Profes sor Pontbriand's class on fascism and totalitarianism, filled out a for m for the request, leaving his name, address, phone number and Social S ecurity number. He was later visited at his parents' home in New Bedfor d by two agents of the Department of Homeland Security, the professors said. The professors said the student was told by the agents that the book is on a "watch list," and that his background, which included significant time abroad, triggered them to investigate the student further. Glenn Fleishman says, Not that this excuses the government's action, but, in fact may chill us further: the student requested "the official Peking version." So it's not JUST he asked for Mao's book, but rather he asked for original sour ce material (an authorized, unabridged translation into English). Reader comment: Michael Benveniste says, 1 UMass Dartmouth does not use SSN's for student ID's. He has talked to the prof essors, who told him what the student claimed happened. The professors have no first hand knowledge of the incident. DEL: 3 It seems a little unlikely that UMass Dartmouth wouldn't have t he Little Red Book on Campus. I think it's at least equally likely that the student made up an excuse for not doing some work, and that the professors bought into it enough to advance their own agenda. Link UPDATE: Speculation growing that the whole thing's a hoax. A post on the Librarian and Information Science News blog says: There is now another version of this story about a Dartmouth student who received a visit from Homeland Security after requesting an original v ersion of Mao's Little Red Book. The latest version takes place at Univ ersity of California/Santa Cruz and mentions History Professor Bruce Le vine. I emailed Levine to see if he could verify the story, but my emai l was the first he'd heard about it. He was a bit amused, as his specia lty is Civil War history, and curious about his name got tacked on to t he story. ALA's Public Information Office is digging into the story as well. Link UPDATE: Standard-Times reporter Aaron Nicodemus, who wrote the news repor t in question, responds to allegations that the UMass incident is a hoa x, and to "copycat" reports of DHS visits to student at another colle ge in California: The UCSC story is a fake, someone merely replaced the names of the profe ssors I quoted and took the story as his own. But my story, published in The Standard-Times on Saturday, Dec. I am trying to convince the student to come forward, and for the univers ity library loan system to come clean about its involvement, and of cou rse, for the Department of Homeland Security to admit it visited the st udent. I'm also an elected memeber of the Council of the American Library Association. We've been going back and forth on this issue for most of the day. He claims the story about the UCSC libra ry is copied form his, that his is the original and cites the two profe ssors as sources. He says that he has been trying to get the student to come forward to tell his story. Link 2 the book does not come from UMass Dartmouth, that is why it needed to be ILL'ed. The library belongs to a consortium and the copy of the boo k that the agents brought to the student's house... I know, sounds fis hy to me too was from a library in nearby Providence, not part of Dart mouth's virtual catalog. which is not the case withe the bizarre reprinting of the story with a West Coast school implanted in it. Council has been sort of paying attention to this iss ue, so more may turn up on the listserv as the day goes on. |