Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 41044
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2018/11/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/15   

2005/12/16 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:41044 Activity:high
12/16   Bush uses NSA to spy on US Citizens:
        http://csua.org/u/ebv
        \_ Engage spin cycle:
           "Those aren't citizens, they're enemy combatants"
           "These are dangerous people.  Do you want another 9/11?"
           "We wouldn't be spying on them if they weren't bad guys"
           "It's not spying, it's routine surveillance"  -tom
           \_ "Tom Holub is an unpatriotic hippy, let's spy on him" -Echelon
        \_ I'm unable to find the word "citizen" in the article or headline.
           Can you point it out?
           \_ Gee, would we be as worked up if the headline said "Bush uses
              NSA to monitor foreign nationals inside the US"?  Of course
              these must be citizens.
              \_ Of course you would.  You've been worked up over all sorts
                 of things that wouldn't bother you if the previous admin
                 did them.
                 \_ I call bullshit.  Many people were worked up about
                    project Echelon.
                    \_ Dude.  It's reiffin.  Bullshit is self evident.
                    \_ No, I meant the wider issues of admin vs admin and the
                       typical political nonsense of "my guy is always right
                       and yours is always wrong" which is seen from people
                       on both sides of the isle.
                    \_ Well, let's see.  According to kchang's MOTD archive,
                       there has been 4 Echelon threads.  How good is that
                       archive's coverage back to 2001?  Let's see how much
                       MOTD coverage this current story is worth.  OBTW,
                       reading about Echelon coverage on MOTD, there did not
                       seem to be a lot of outrage as you claimed.  Perhaps
                       you can substantiate your claim?
                       seem to be a lot of outrage as you claimed.
                       \_ Please, this is the motd, no facts.
                       \_ You think "Jam Echelon" day is a statement
                          in favor of Echelon?
                          \_ Boy, it must be nice to live in a binary world.
                             Someone said "worked up", someone else said
                             "outrage".  To my mind, a 2 line "jam echelon"
                             thread doesn't count for either.
                       \_ And there have been no discussions about
                          whether watching paint drying is interesting,
                          therefore it *must* be interesting.
                          \_ Now, you really should be better at logic than
                             this.
                \_ Do I have to do everything for you? Do you dispute
                   that citizens were being spied on?
                   http://tinyurl.com/ahlo5
        \_ Tips balance on Patriot Act:
           http://csua.org/u/ec8 (NYT)
           \_ 'Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, called the
              disclosure "shocking" and said it had impelled him to vote "no"
              today.'  Oh blow it out your ass, Chuck.  Like you were going to
              vote "yes" under any circumstances.  -independent
              \_ Hmmm..  I wonder how Schumer voted on the Patriot act in 2001.
                 Actually, I don't have to wonder.  I know.  Do you?  Blow it
                 out your own.
                 \_ I do know, but that doesn't change the fact that if Chuck's
                    brand of reactionary blustering is the best face the
                    Democrats can put forward (and he's one of the ones I see
                    most often), they're in as sad a state as the Republicans.
                    -pp
              \_ And look up "impelled" in the dictionary.
                 \_ Hey, this guy can't even bother to look up "lie" in the
                    dictionary and avoid looking like an ass.
2018/11/15 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
11/15   

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csua.org/u/ebv -> news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051216/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_nsa
AP Report of NSA Spying Prompts Call for Probe By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer 55 minutes ago WASHINGTON - Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter put the Bu sh administration on notice Friday that his panel would hold hearings in to a report that the National Security Agency eavesdropped without warra nts on people inside the United States. Neither Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice nor White House press secretar y Scott McClellan would confirm or deny the report which said the super- secret NSA had spied on as many as 500 people at any given time since 20 02 in this country. McClellan said the White House has received no requests for information f rom lawmakers because of the report. "Congress does have an important ov ersight role," he said. Before the program began, the NSA typically limited its domestic surveill ance to foreign embassies and missions and obtained court orders for suc h investigations. Overseas, 5,000 to 7,000 people suspected of terrorist ties are monitored at one time. Administration officials reacted to the report by asserting that the pres ident has respected the Constitution while striving to protect the Ameri can people. Rice said Bush has "acted lawfully in every step that he has taken." And McClellan said Bush "is going to remain fully committed to upholding our Constitution and protect the civil liberties of the American people. The report surfaced as the administration and its GOP allies on Capitol H ill were fighting to save provisions of the expiring USA Patriot Act tha t they believe are key tools in the fight against terrorism. An attempt to rescue the approach favored by the White House and Republicans failed on a procedural vote Friday morning. The Times said reporters interviewed nearly a dozen current and former ad ministration officials about the program and granted them anonymity beca use of the classified nature of the program. Government officials credited the new program with uncovering several ter rorist plots, including one by Iyman Faris, an Ohio trucker who pleaded guilty in 2003 to supporting al-Qaida by planning to destroy the Brookly n Bridge, the report said. Some NSA officials were so concerned about the legality of the program th at they refused to participate, the Times said. Questions about the lega lity of the program led the administration to temporarily suspend it las t year and impose new restrictions. Asked about this on NBC's "Today" show, Rice said, "I'm not going to comm ent on intelligence matters." "I can only comment to say that the president has been very clear that he has not ordered people to do things that are illegal," she added. American Civil Liberties Union , said the group's initial reaction to the NSA disclosure was "shock that the administration has gone so far in violating American civil libertie s to the extent where it seems to be a violation of federal law." Pentagon said it was reviewing its use of a classified database of information abo ut suspicious people and activity inside the United States after a repor t by NBC News said the database listed activities of anti-war groups tha t were not a security threat to Pentagon property or personnel. The administration had briefed congressional leaders about the NSA progra m and notified the judge in charge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveilla nce Court, the secret Washington court that handles national security is sues. Aides to National Intelligence Director John Negroponte and West Virginia Sen. Jay Rockefeller, the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Commi ttee, declined to comment Thursday night. The Times said it delayed publication of the report for a year because th e White House said it could jeopardize continuing investigations and ale rt would-be terrorists that they might be under scrutiny. The Times said it omitted information from the story that administration officials arg ued could be useful to terrorists. John McCain, R-Ari z, in the Oval Office of the White House, Thursday, Dec. The White House has agreed to McCain's proposal to ban cruel t reatment of prisoners. The informati on contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewr itten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associ ated Press.
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tinyurl.com/ahlo5 -> www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/16/AR2005121600021_pf.html
REAL ESTATE Correction to This Article A version of this story that appeared in today's print edition reported t hat the Center for National Security Studies is affiliated with George W ashington University. Bush Authorized Domestic Spying Post-9/11 Order Bypassed Special Court By Dan Eggen Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, December 16, 2005; A01 President Bush signed a secret order in 2002 authorizing the National Sec urity Agency to eavesdrop on US citizens and foreign nationals in the United States, despite previous legal prohibitions against such domestic spying, sources with knowledge of the program said last night. The super-secretive NSA, which has generally been barred from domestic sp ying except in narrow circumstances involving foreign nationals, has mon itored the e-mail, telephone calls and other communications of hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of people under the program, the New York Times disclosed last night. The aim of the program was to rapidly monitor the phone calls and other c ommunications of people in the United States believed to have contact wi th suspected associates of al Qaeda and other terrorist groups overseas, according to two former senior administration officials. Michael V Hayden, were worried tha t vital information could be lost in the time it took to secure a warran t from a special surveillance court, sources said. But the program's ramifications also prompted concerns from some quarters , including Sen. The Times said it held off on publishing its story about the NSA program for a year after administration officials said its disclosure would harm national security. A senior official reached by telephone said the issue was too sensitive to talk about. None of severa l press officers responded to telephone or e-mail messages. Congressional sources familiar with limited aspects of the program would not discuss any classified details but made it clear there were serious questions about the legality of the NSA actions. The sources, who demand ed anonymity, said there were conditions under which it would be possibl e to gather and retain information on Americans if the surveillance were part of an investigation into foreign intelligence. The sources said the actual work of the NSA is so closely held that it is difficult to determine wh ether it is acting within the law. The revelations come amid a fierce congressional debate over reauthorizat ion of the USA Patriot Act, an anti-terrorism law passed after the Sept. The Patriot Act granted the FBI new powers to conduc t secret searches and surveillance in the United States. Most of the powers covered under that law are overseen by a secret court that meets at Justice Department headquarters and must approve applicati ons for wiretaps, searches and other operations. The NSA's operation is outside that court's purview, and according to the Times report, the Jus tice Department may have sought to limit how much that court was made aw are of NSA activities. Public disclosure of the NSA program also comes at a time of mounting con cerns about civil liberties over the domestic intelligence operations of the US military, which have also expanded dramatically after the Sept . For more than four years, the NSA tasked other military intelligence agen cies to assist its broad-based surveillance effort directed at people in side the country suspected of having terrorist connections, even before Bush signed the 2002 order that authorized the NSA program, according to an informed US official. The effort, which began within days after the attacks, has consisted part ly of monitoring domestic telephone conversations, e-mail and even fax c ommunications of individuals identified by the NSA as having some connec tion to al Qaeda events or figures, or to potential terrorism-related ac tivities in the United States, the official said. It has also involved teams of Defense Intelligence Agency personnel stati oned in major US cities conducting the type of surveillance typically performed by the FBI: monitoring the movements and activities -- through high-tech equipment -- of individuals and vehicles, the official said. The involvement of military personnel in such tasks was provoked by grave anxiety among senior intelligence officials after the 2001 suicide atta cks that additional terrorist cells were present within US borders and could only be discovered with the military's help, said the official, w ho had direct knowledge of the events. Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies, said t he secret order may amount to the president authorizing criminal activit y The law governing clandestine surveillance in the United States, the Fore ign Intelligence Surveillance Act, prohibits conducting electronic surve illance not authorized by statute. A government agent can try to avoid p rosecution if he can show he was "engaged in the course of his official duties and the electronic surveillance was authorized by and conducted p ursuant to a search warrant or court order of a court of competent juris diction," according to the law. "This is as shocking a revelation as we have ever seen from the Bush admi nistration," said Martin, who has been sharply critical of the administr ation's surveillance and detention policies. "It is, I believe, the firs t time a president has authorized government agencies to violate a speci fic criminal prohibition and eavesdrop on Americans." Caroline Fredrickson, director of the Washington legislative office of th e American Civil Liberties Union, said she is "dismayed" by the report. "It's clear that the administration has been very willing to sacrifice ci vil liberties in its effort to exercise its authority on terrorism, to t he extent that it authorizes criminal activity," Fredrickson said. The NSA activities were justified by a classified Justice Department lega l opinion authored by John C Yoo, a former deputy in the Office of Lega l Counsel who argued that congressional approval of the war on al Qaeda gave broad authority to the president, according to the Times. That legal argument was similar to another 2002 memo authored primarily b y Yoo, which outlined an extremely narrow definition of torture. That op inion, which was signed by another Justice official, was formally disavo wed after it was disclosed by the Washington Post. Justice Department spokeswoman Tasia Scolinos would not comment on the re port last night. Staff writers Dafna Linzer and Peter Baker contributed to this report.
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csua.org/u/ec8 -> www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16cnd-patriot.html?hp&ex=1134795600&en=6bb7c687f8135bb9&ei=5094&partner=homepage
Skip to next paragraph Stephen Crowley/The New York Times Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, the Republican who heads the Senat e Judiciary Committee, urged the Senate to vote on the act today, callin g it "a balanced bill." Threats and Responses Go to Complete Coverage After an emotional debate about the balance between national security and personal liberties and the very character of the republic, the Senate v oted, 52 to 47, to end debate and take a yes-or-no vote on the law itsel f But since 60 votes are required under Senate rules to end debate, the Pat riot Act was left hanging. The House of Representatives voted, 251 to 17 4, last week in favor of the latest version of the bill, which had been worked out in negotiations between the two chambers. The Senate action today leaves the bill up in the air and due to expire o n Dec. President Bush and House Republican leaders had pushed hard f or the bill and had spoken strongly against any further compromises. But no one would be surprised if yet another round of talks is undertaken t o avoid the prospect of the lawmakers going home for Christmas and allow ing the statute to lapse. Today's Senate debate and vote reflected deep divisions that cut across p arty lines in ways rarely seen. For instance, Senator Larry Craig, a con servative Republican from Idaho who would be expected to support Preside nt Bush on most issues, opposes the present form of the Patriot Act. "Of all that we do this year that is lasting beyond tomorrow," Mr Craig said, the decision on the Patriot Act is the most important. Senator Bill Frist of Tennessee, the Republican majority leader, unsucces sfully pushed for the vote to end debate and move to the bill itself. Another supporter of the bill, Senator Jon Kyl, Republican of Arizona, as serted that if the Patriot Act had been in place before Sept. And should another attack occur b efore the law is reauthorized, "We will have to answer for that," he sai d Supporters of the bill, enacted only days after the Sept. The measure that was passed in the House but stalled in the Senate today would make permanent 14 of 16 provisions that are set to expire at year' s end, while putting in place additional judicial oversight and safeguar ds against abuse. Critics of the bill, who insist it does not go far enough to protect indi vidual freedom and privacy, have called for extending the present bill f or three months to allow further refinements. But House Republican leade rs have so far resisted a three-month extension, as have Mr Frist and t he White House. President Bush "is not interested in signing any short-term renewal," the president's chief spokesman, Scott McClellan, said after the vote. "We urge them to get this done now and pass that legislation." Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, the Republican who heads the Senat e Judiciary Committee, urged the Senate to vote on the act today. He cal led it "a balanced bill" that does not have all the civil liberties prot ections he wanted but one that is, nevertheless, acceptable and would gi ve "important tools to law enforcement, in a balanced way." Senator Patrick J Leahy of Vermont, the ranking Democrat on the panel, u rged rejection of the bill in its present form. Yes, he said, there is a threat from terrorism, but "the threat to civil liberties is also very real in America today." Several senators held up copies of The New York Times, which reported tod ay that President Bush secretly authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on Americans and others inside the United States to search for evidence of terrorist activity, but without court-approved warrants ordinarily required for such surveillance. Senator Charles E Schumer, Democrat of New York, called the disclosure " shocking" and said it had impelled him to vote "no" today. Senator Edward M Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts, said the disclosure showed that "this administration feels it's above the law," and that "w e cannot protect our borders if we do not protect our ideals." Democrat of Wisconsin and the only senat or to vote against the Patriot Act four years ago, said the disclosure o f domestic spying "should send a chill down the spine of every senator a nd every American." Only two Democrats, Senators Ben Nelson of Nebraska and Tim Johnson of So uth Dakota, voted to end debate - that is, in favor of the bill. Several Republican senators voted against ending debate - in other words, again st the bill. They were Mr Craig, John Sununu of New Hampshire, Chuck Ha gel of Nebraska and Lisa Murkowski of Alaska. Mr Frist also voted "no" in the end, but in a purely parliamentary maneu ver to allow him to try to bring up the bill again. Thus, the Patriot Ac t was actually seven votes short of the 60 needed to end debate today.