12/12   dim, do you advocate living a lot farther to buy a single family
        home instead of a condo that is a lot closer?
        \_ Tough question. In general, I like the lifestyle a SFR affords.
           However, I'd rather have a condo in SF than commute in from
           Sacramento every day. There are advantages to both. All else
           equal, you are better off with a SFR in most cases. For
           investment purposes, small buildings and duplex/triplex
           situations are better than either. --dim
        \_ Condos are better when you're young and you don't have time to
           mow the lawn, adjust the sprinkler, rake leafs, clean up the
           garage (which your wife thinks is an unlimited storage space),
           plant new flower beds, add manure [or chemical fertilizer],
           take out weeds, kill gophers, spray pesticides, etc.
           In addition, when you're older and move up to a SFR that real
           men live in, you can rent out your condo without worrying
           about the condition of the condo as your home owner's association
           should take care of things for you. Lastly, home owner's
           association dues (HOA) is completely tax deductable as expense
           so it's all good.
           \_ Jesus, what is wrong with you people?  You do realize that you
              can hire a gardener to do most/all of that crap, yes?  It's
              really actually rather common and can work really well at a
              fairly modest price.  You can find these 'gardeners' in the
              yellow pages.
           \_ If I ever want to do any of that shit on your list other than
              killing gophers, I hope someone has the mercy to kill me.
              \- spoken like a young rebellious liberal. One day, you will grow
                 up and assimilate, and you'll love to do all of the above.
                 Grow up, get a job, buy a suburbian house, buy a minivan
                 or SUV, and have kids. Family values, that's the American
                 way.  Like I said, you'll have to do all of the above sooner
                 or later. Can I kill you now? God Bless.
                                               \_ God Bless? God Bless what?
                                                  What exactly is it that god
                                                  is supposed to be blessing
                                                  here?  Do you really believe
                                                  in god, or are you just being
                                                  'clever'?
                 \_ Yes, but at least he galloped.  When did you?
           \_ blah! both options suck. why buy when you can rent worry
              free. i'm happy renting my place, i feel perfectly fine
              playing PS2, Xbox and having cool LAN parties. what is it
              with you old farts. grow down man -young troll, will try harder
           \_ SFR have greater demands and lower supply. Old SFR and
              orchids and warehouses are constantly being torn down for
              \_ That's gotta be the smallest condo ever!
              more condo developments. SFR are disappearing while condos
              are being built all the time. So, it's not hard to see why
              one is better than the other. If you spend just a little
              bit of time in traffic, your overall gain in the long run
              is much higher. SFR rules.
           \_ I'd actually argue that condos are better for older people.
              Young people have a lot more energy for all of the above.
           \_ Are HOA dues really tax deductible? googling says otherwise,
              can anyone say definitively?
              \_ If you are renting the place out, you can deduct the HOA
                 dues from the amount you collect in rent.  You cannot
                 deduct the HOA dues on your primary residence.
                 \_ Good to know -potential future landlord
           \_ Live simply, and spend your extra time doing charity work,
              instead of mowing the lawn.
              \_ helping thyself is the best charity work.  -libertarian
                 \- how do you, mr libertarian, define charity? do you
                    define it as "helping yourself" or that just falls
                    under your defn? --psb
                     \_ I think you have been had.  Libertarians LOVE
                     \_ I think you have been had.  Libertarians like
                        charity. Charity makes one feel good about oneself
                        and helps another who may well be gratefull. It is
                        and helps another who may well be grateful. It is
                        Govmnt handouts, which are coerced from one person
                        (how many here feel good when paying their taxes?)
                        and given to another as entitelments, (which are
                        less likely to make one feel gratefuly)
                        less likely to make one feel grateful)
                        Please note, that I am *not* arguing personally
                        against social welfare.  I am simply stating the
                        libertarian POV to illustrate that it is more likely
                        that the above is (mis)characterizing a "libertarian"
                        not actually speaking as one.  -crebbs
                        \- i dont think i've been had. i think you are being
                           defensive. saying "chess is my favorite sport"
                           may make sense if sport to you is at essence about
                           competition but may not make sense if must involve
                           something physical. is non-competititive mountain
                           climbing a sport? similarly, i am trying to figure
                           out what this fellow considers the "essence" of
                           charity. shopping on amazon makes me feel good
                           and helps amazon stockholders. that isnt charity.
                           i do know a bit about libertarianism and
                           contractarian philosophy. i am asking a narrow
                           question to the PP. not making a statement about
                           social welfare in the large.  --psb
                           \- on i see ... from below it looks like
                              the "-libertarian" fellow is just mocking
                              libertarianism. it's hard to tell the mocking
                              from those who are in earnest ... privatize
                              from those who are in earnest ... privatatize
                              fire depts! --psb
                              \_ right, my point was just that he is mocking
                                 As for the "Fire Depts" comment. All groups
                                 have their irrational fringe elements.  It
                                 happens that 3rd party groups, being ipso
                                 facto out of the mainstream, tend to be more
                                 defined by their extremists. That being said
                                 there is a huge difference between someone
                                 Characterizing Libs as radicals, and some
                                 idiot(s) who (regularly) MIS-Characterize
                                 them as mean/cruel/hateful/dimwitted/selfish
                                 hedonistic bastards (not to say that there are
                                 none who are) -crebbs
                                 \- my criticisms of libertarians is not a
                                    philosophical criticism of libertarianism.
                                    i think most libertarians actually dont
                                    care about the philosophy they just like
                                    what it says. this isnt a perfect analogy
                                    but it's like the difference between a
                                    raiders supporter because they are co-
                                    located in oakland and somebody to endorses
                                    the raider image/lifestyle/values and would
                                    stick with them even if moved to Dallas.
                                    i do have separate criticisms of the lib.
                                    philosophy but i also think the it is a
                                    compelling framework that can force
                                    opposing views to answer some tough
                                    questions (as i have said before some
                                    liberals become defensive when confronted
                                    with "dont you feel people know what is
                                    best for themselves" ... when it is phrased
                                    as "do you think poor people are stupid"
                                    and feel obligated to backpedal rather
                                    than say "yes, there are a bunch of cases
                                    where people dont make good decisions"
                                    either for structural reasons [info costs]
                                    or "weak will"). the Randroids are pretty
                                    much the Stalinists of the Libertarians.
                                    are you related to the Krebs cycle people?
                                 them as evil/hateful/dimwitted/selfish
                                 bastards (not to say that there are none
                                 who are) -crebbs
                                    are you invovled with the crebbs cycle?