12/9    Hey, I'm looking at Tookie's case right now, and it really looks like
        he's being convicted of circumstantial evidence -- and where there are
        witnesses who said he did it, they're all bad people as well and/or who
        are in a position to get something out of testifying against Tookie.
        Tookie had been a thug at the very least, but like I said:  on the
        murder convictions, circumstantial, and questionable witnesses.
        I know that's the way Americans like it -- you can be convicted and
        executed based on circumstantial evidence if a jury makes the
        conclusion that you are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
        The crimes themselves are heinous:  Shotgun blasts to a guy lying face-
        down on the floor, and one- and two-shot blasts to two defenseless
        elderly folks and their daughter.
        \_ but he wrote children's books and found jesus on death row!  Free
                                   \_ Which no one has read!
                                      \_ You wouldn't read Tookie's books to
                                         your kids (assuming you had any)?
                                         Why do you hate Tookie?  Free Tookie!
           tookie!  tookie for the nobel peace prize!  nominated 5 times
           already, maybe this is his year!
           \_ that doesn't matter.  this American thinks it's fine to lock him
              up forever no matter how much good he does, but it's not fine to
              execute him if it's a circumstantial case.
              \_ what good has he done?
                 \_ some people say he's a different person and he writes kids
                    books, but I think that hardly is enough for letting him go
                    free based on the evidence provided.  like I said, lock him
                    up forever.
                    \_ some people?  you forget he found jesus on death row and
                       writes children's books and is a 5 time nobel peace
                       prize nominee!  free tookie!
        \_ "Tookie is a very bad man" sounds like you're admonishing your cat.
           "No you can't have my chicken pot pie!  That'a bad Mr. Tookie!"
           \_ MEOW!
           \_ post updated.
        \_ It's very frequent that there is no direct physical evidence, but
           circumstantial evidence can be overwhelming.
           \_ I've seen CSI!  If the glove don't.. oh wait... nevermind.
           \_ I'd by happier if it was "death = no doubt", and "life
              imprisonment = beyond a reasonable doubt".  yeah, this means I
              think you can be executed based on circumstantial, as long as
              there is "no doubt" he did it all -- yeah, you leave it up to the
              jurors to decide what "no doubt" means (but you're already
              leaving it up to them to decide what "reasonable doubt" means,
              which is a tougher concept)
           \_ overwhelming enough to make one certain! ... but not as "a matter
              of fact".  anyway, that's the system, and people like it that
              way.
              \_ the standard isn't "certain".  it is "beyond a reasonable"
                 doubt.  feel free to change the entire justice system to one
                 of "certainty" if you'd like.  it'll suck to be a civilian
                 but at least the jails won't be full anymore.
                 \_ http://www.lyricsfreak.com/a/anthrax/8482.html
              \- what i think is sad is that people like aldridge ames,
                 robert hanssen, eric rudolf etc have managed to cook up
                 deals to avoid the death penalty. the lesson we learn from
                 the eric rudolf case is "hide a bunch of explosive in the
                 hills before you go on your killing spree so you have
                 something to tradeto have the death penalty taken off the
                 table." i think arguably that is a reasonable use of
                 torture. --psb
              \_ sorry guys, I was being stupid.  I deleted this post but
                 someone restored it for some reason.  New one below:
              \_ sorry guys, but that post was flawed.  stop responding to
              \_ sorry guys, but this post is flawed.  stop responding to
              \_ sorry guys, I was being stupid.  stop responding to
                 it.  I deleted it and someone restored the post for some
                 reason.  New one below (which I wrote before noticing any
                 of the responses):
                 reason.  New one below:
           \_ I'd by happier if it was "death = no doubt", and "life
              imprisonment = beyond a reasonable doubt".  yeah, this means I
              think you can be executed based on circumstantial, as long as
              there is "no doubt" he did it all -- yeah, you leave it up to the
              jurors to decide what "no doubt" means (but you're already
              leaving it up to them to decide what "reasonable doubt" means,
              which is a tougher concept)
              Also, to address what another person wrote, I support "beyond
              a reasonable doubt" on convictions, but "no doubt" on capital
              punishment.  The only thing you change is the sentencing part
              for capital crimes, not "the entire justice system"; you are
              still convicted on "beyond a reasonable doubt".
        \_ how could you execute a man with such soft lips?
           \_ MEOW!  FREE TOOKIE!