12/1    "Theologians to ask Pope to suspend limbo?"
        http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051130/od_nm/pope_limbo_dc
        Once again in history, the Church is changing the unchangable truth.
        \_ Well, it beats the Protestant answer.
           \_ Which is?  Thx.
              \_ It depends on how fundie you go. Hardcore: If you don't
                 believe, go to directly to Hell. Do not pass GO! Includes
                 dead babies, everyone born after Christ who isn't a
                 a Christian. Liberal: Hell is just a state of mind. Eternal
                 punishment is not the work of a just god. Average: Live
                 as a "good" person, you're in. Babies get in free. Get
                 free upgrades if you're Christian, bonus points for picking
                 the right sect.
                 as a "good" person, you're in. Babies get in free.
                 \_ I had this chat with a fundie coworker.  Earth is 6000
                    years old, everyone who hasn't accepted Jesus into their
                    heart/doesn't have a personal relationship with Christ is
                    going to Hell, etc.  I didn't ask about dead babies, but
                    definitely post-Christ non-Christians -> Hell.  He couldn't
                    answer for pre-Christ people which is what I really wanted
                    to hear about because he simply didn't know church
                    doctrine that well, which surprised me a bit.
                    \_ Google for "answers in genesis".  -John
                    \_ Most take the line that those who believe in the One
                       True God before Christ were given the choice to believe
                       in Christ either before going to heaven or while in
                       heaven. Those who didn't, took the quick trip to Hell.
                       \_ I think if I got run over by some pro-goat zealot
                          and was standing at the pearly gates and had to
                          decide if this whole Christ thing was working for
                          me or not, it wouldn't be a hard call.
                          \_ Maybe. The New Testament was a massive religious
                             re-org for the thing now called Christianity.
                          \_ You're assuming you'd know that it was Christ
                             asking you.  What if there was some long
                             period of time before judgement where things
                             are pretty much the same as here, with the
                             same religious confusion?  How could you tell
                             who was right between the muslim and fundie
                             missionaries?  The Hindis might tell you this
                             is the waiting room to reincarnation!
                             \_ Well maybe that's what this world is.  Maybe
                                the moon is made of cheese!  And goats!  And
                                little grey men making goat and cheese soup!
                                Maybe they are the true creators and we are
                                all just soup ingredients!  You're assuming
                                the Christians, Muslims, Hindis or anyone
                                else is more likely correct than the FSM people
                                or those of us who believe in the Great Ladle!
                                \_ Wow, that was an easy discussion to win.
                                   \_ It was?  You look mocked.  Sinner, you're
                                      going to Hell!
                    \_ Not surprising. Most Americans don't think about their
                       religion that hard either due to ignorance or by design.
                       Ah, faith.
                       \_ Most /people/ don't think about /anything they
                          believe/ irrespective of topic. -emarkp
                          \_ Ah, but /goats/...now that's a different story. ;P
                       \_ Yep. Not surprising at all... I've often tried
                          talking to Christians about the history of
                          Christianity and they usually are clueless. One might
                          think that this religion they base their entire faith
                          in as the ultimate answer in the universe and base
                          behavior on would be important enough to want to
                          learn as much as they possibly could about it. But
                          no. Isn't it a coincidence that almost all the
                          Muslims happen to be children of Muslims? Christians
                          the children of Christians? This is pretty much proof
                          that religions are just a cultural indoctrination and
                          it's all a load of goat shit.
                          \_ Goats seem to be playing an amazingly important
                             role in this thread.
                          \_ Again, you could say that about just about any
                             topic.  To be fair, most Christians are interested
                             in living their daily lives according to the
                             values of Christianity, and don't have an interest
                             in the history (though I find it fascinating).
                             -emarkp
                             \_ Not really. Like what other topic? There isn't
                                anything else quite like religion. There may be
                                various health-related info I guess that could
                                compare, like people sort of accept doctor
                                advice without researching the history of
                                biology. However, I still think it doesn't
                                compare because the consequences of accepting
                                this info is really minor. People aren't
                                getting offended and starting wars about
                                health advice, and the possibility of error and
                                change is always acknowledged.
                                But whatever. I'm curious: what explanation
                                could most Christians give for why God leaves
                                such a confusing mess of information on which
                                to base one's faith? If one can go to hell
                                based on believing the wrong group then how
                                does that make any sense? And if not, and all
                                the "good" people will be fine, then why not
                                acknowledge that explicitly?
                                \_ The answer is, of course, that man is not
                                   perfect. The sourcebook of Christian faith
                                   is the Bible, "the Word of God" as presented
                                   by men. The core of your question relies on
                                   your faith in on how accurately men wrote
                                   down the bible, translated it, and interpret
                                   its stories now. The true believer relies on
                                   faith in the Christian god in the face of
                                   doubt. A bible of pure exactitude would be
                                   an anathema of faith and lead you use it as
                                   a crutch as opposed to an inspiration and
                                   guide to what a Christian life is. Or
                                   something like that.
                                   \_ It could be absolutely clear what it
                                      means, and I could disbelieve. So
                                      obfuscation isn't necessary for faith.
                                      Most Christian authorities I'm aware of
                                      are far more demanding than what some
                                      "liberal" Christians try to say (getting
                                      touchy-feely and de-emphasizing church
                                      doctrines).
                                      \_ God looks at the heart rather than
                                         outward appearance.  The Pharisees
                                         kept the laws, some of it at least,
                                         but were rotten to the core.  When
                                         the Pharisees tried to trap Jesus
                                         by asking him whether people should
                                         pay taxes to Caesar, Jesus said,
                                         "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's,
                                         and to God, what is God's."  What
                                         exactly does Jesus mean, and would
                                         exactly does Jesus mean?  Would
                                         you consider that as obfuscation?
                                         \_ Nobody knows exactly what he
                                            might mean. But nobody even knows
                                            if he really said that, which is
                                            the more important issue. Who
                                            wrote that story? (in any case
                                            I feel you are missing my broader
                                            point. My point extends beyond
                                            Christian internals.)
                                            point, probably intentionally.
                                            my point extends beyond Christian
                                            internals.)
                                \_ Jesus is simple.
                                   You need to recognize and acknowledge that
                                   you are a sinner.  And you need to be
                                   reconciled with God through Christ.
                                   Then you need to love others as you love
                                   yourself, and also make disciples of all
                                   nations.
                                   \_ That's not what I asked.
                                      \_ You said it is a "confusing mess".
                                         It isn't.
                                         \_ There are 7+ major world religions
                                            and each one has major subgroups
                                            who claim to be important and
                                            historically fight each other.
                                            I'm not personally confused. But
                                            obviously people don't know what
                                            to believe. Or rather they all
                                            believe different stuff. Besides
                                            whether to believe Christianity
                                            as written in a certain version of
                                            the Bible, there are subgroups such
                                            as the Mormons. Any of the major
                                            beliefs are "reasonable". It sounds
                                            like you are saying that all of the
                                            various Christian denominations are
                                            irrelevant (is that their official
                                            position?) You also appear to think
                                            any non-Christian belief is not
                                            reasonable which is absurd. And if
                                            they are reasonable why would God
                                            allow this unless it doesn't matter
                                            in which case Christ is irrelevant.
                       ---------------------\
                       You ask many good questions, and I have asked these
                       questions myself.  One thing I disagree with is when
                       you asked "Why will God allow this?"  Will you also
                       question why God would allow for instance, Communism,
                       which I might point out, many idealistic people
                       passionately believed in?  Here is a link on "What
                       if they haven't heard?":
                       http://tinyurl.com/c2bsw
                                  \_ "allow"... I mean basically that e.g.
                                     even Christians have a hard time
                                     figuring out exactly what stuff means
                                     in the Bible, the authority of various
                                     people like the Pope, etc., the veracity
                                     of "younger" faiths like Islam or Mormons,
                                     so it would appear God didn't do a good
                                     job about giving us "the word".
                                     \_ Not really. Only Catholics listen
                                        to the Pope and Christians do not
                                        consider Islam or LDS to be part
                                        of their faith. Yes, LDS considers
                                        themselves Christian, but no one
                                        else does.
                                        \_ I do.  You're all the same to me.
                                           \_ You're just misinformed.
                                              \_ Your internal doctrinal
                                                 disputes about Jesus vs the
                                                 Trinity, Mary, Smith and
                                                 other details are unimportant.
                                                 Your core beliefs in God,
                                                 Satan, Heaven, Hell, etc are
                                                 the same.  As a non-christian
                                                 of any sort you all look the
                                                 same to me even if your
                                                 trivial internal differences
                                                 make you feel very different
                                                 from a Christian who prefers
                                                 a different set of doctrine.
                                                 \_ The differences between
                                                    these are far more than
                                                    simple doctrinal
                                                    differences. You are
                                                    misinformed if you think
                                                    otherwise.
                                                    \_ Until you add something
                                                       more than "you are
                                                       wrong", you still look
                                                       the same to me.  A
                                                       baptist=catholic=mormon=
                                                       methodist=whatever from
                                                       out here in non-christ
                                                       land.  I'm looking at
                                                       the forest, not a
                                                       branch on one tree.
                                                       \_ All of the above
                                                          are denominations
                                                          and are basically
                                                          the same, EXCEPT
                                                          Mormons. Earlier
                                                          you mentioned Islam,
                                                          too, which shows you
                                                          have very little
                                                          clue. We're not
                                                          discussing Catholics
                                                          vs. Episcopalians.
        See?  There you go trying to say one denominations, Mormons, are _/
        somehow magically different than other denominations.  I never said
        anything about Islam in this thread so don't try to use that to show
        my clue level.  I *very* clearly said, as a non-christian, all you
        christian types look alike to me.  Yes, even the Mormons.  If you'd
        like to explain how exactly you're different from the Mormons,
        Catholics, Baptists, or anyone else, you're welcome to, but all you've
        had to say so far is, "you're clueless!@!@!111" which is not adding
        value to the discussion. Details and specifics or go away.  If you
        don't know enough your own or the other denominations to say how
        don't know enough of your own or the other denominations to say how
        they're different then it is you who is clueless.
        \_ Mormons are *NOT* a denomination of the Christian Church. Period.
           If you want to know why, do your own research. If you want to
           remain clueless then continue to do so. If you didn't mention
           Islam, then someone else did. Mormons are as different from
           Christians as Jews or Muslims are from Christians. Yes, there
           are some of the same elements but the religions are quite
           distinct if you know anything about them.
           \_ Someone else mentioned Islam, not me.  Deal with them on that.
              As far as the Mormons or whoever, I have done research and
              discussed it with my fundie baptist friend, my mormon friend
              and did some reading online.  I don't know or care what you
              are but Mormon=Christian=Baptist=Catholic=whatever to me.
              You *still* have added absolutely nothing to this.  I don't
              think you know the first thing about the Mormons or likely
              any other religion including your own.  You haven't even
              gotten up to the level of "yes I am, no you're not!" yet.  Add
              some facts or just give up and go away.  Yes, I know you're a
              Cal student and *reaaaaaalllly* smart so you don't have to
              explain yourself to lesser mortals like uhm, other people from
              Cal.  Yeah....  You can't even explain how you're different
              from the Mormons you seem to despise so much yet you'll take
              the time to say over and over again how clueless I am.  Silly.
           \_ I mentioned Islam for a reason which you still don't understand
              and I don't feel like doing this today. But it was interesting.
              \_ I understand completely. You're an underinformed idiot.
                                     \_ Perhaps I can use the belief in
                                        democracy (or liberty) as an
                                        analogy.  Two persons may both
                                        believe in democracy but they may
                                        disagree with how a democratic
                                        government should be implemented.
                                        You may a
                                        \_ Either this implementation is
                                           relevant/important from a spiritual
                                           point of view (point of view of God)
                                           or it isn't. Traditionally the
                                           Church is vital to Christianity
                                           and heretics were damned. Your
                                           attempts to avoid the issue don't
                                           really work.
                                           \_ The church is a group of
                                              Christians worshipping God
                                              together.  God looks at the
                                              heart, not the form.
                                              \_ That would be, if the "God"
                                                 that you personally envision
                                                 actually existed.  He
                                                 doesn't.  You have even less
                                                 "evidence" than the fundies;
                                                 at least they have a book
                                                 they can claim represents
                                                 "truth."  -tom
                                                 \_ actually, everything I
                                                    said is by the book.
                                                    \_ according to your lib.
                                                       interpretation.
                                                       \_ Try reading it.
                                              Start with the Gospels, Psalm
                                              and Isaiah.
                                              and Isaiah.  Isaiah 58 (on
                                              fasting) could be a start.  You
                                              can use http://www.biblegateway.com
                                \_ Health care, food, politics (just look at
                                   the Balkans, India/Pakistan, etc.).  I'm not
                                   most Christians, but most of the ones I've
                                   talked to haven't thought much about people
                                   other than themselves and the people they
                                   know directly, and so haven't confronted the
                                   "ignorant == damned" problem.  Most people
                                   who do some sort of missionary work face it
                                   and resolve it somehow.  My theology (LDS)
                                   explicitly points out that we're not damned
                                   for ignorance.  Your eternal state depends
                                   on what you choose given what you know.
                                   -emarkp
                                   \_ Nobody "knows". That's the point. Do you
                                      find it easy to convert other Christians
                                      to Mormonism? Why should this be?
                                      \_ For whatever reason, it is certainly
                                         working.  Last I knew, the Mormons
                                         were still the fastest growing
                                         religion in the world for the last
                                         umpteen years.  Other than FSM and
                                         Soupism, of course.
                                         \_ I wouldn't be too surprised based
                                            on the missionary work that Mormons
                                            do probably more than most. But are
                                            they really growing more than the
                                            birth rate of say Muslims?
                          \_ So where did the 50 million Christians in the PRC
                             come from?  Or the 20 million in S.Korea?
                             \_ Proselytized. Insignificant to my point.
                 \_ why don't you just pick up the bible and read the gospels.
                    \_ I'll assume your indenting is off rather than answer.
                 \_ didn't South Park say that the Mormons got it right?
                    \_ Dum dum dum dum dum.
        \_ So, Limbo is in limbo?
        \_ The easy part is changing it.  The hard part is spinning the
           change in such a way that the teeming masses won't wise up to
           the fact that they are just making it up as they go along.