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| 5/24 |
| 2005/11/18-21 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:40646 Activity:nil |
11/18 http://movies.crooksandliars.com/cnn_rep_murtha_end_iraq_051117b.wmv http://movies.crooksandliars.com/cnn_rep_murtha_end_iraq_051117b.mov Murtha speech, transcript: http://csua.org/u/e1a (Washington Post) House GOP does a bait-and-switch and puts forward GOP version of Murtha resolution to vote http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/18/163220/03 \_ A dailykos post from someone watching the C-SPAN debate: "Soms [sic] Republican jackass just referred to it as the 'Democrat resolution.' Jim McGovern then made a parliamentary inquiry--'The gentleman stated that this is a Democratic proposal. Could you tell me who introduced this resolution.' So Republican Jackass starts yelling for McGovern to yield and McGovern says, 'No, I have a parlimentary [sic] inquiry.' And the chair tells him Mr. Hunter introduced it. 'Mr. Hunter? The Republican?' says McGovern. That was great." -op \_ How is this a "bait-and-switch"? \_ Do http://cnn.com and http://foxnews.com think people are voting on Murtha's or the GOP resolution? \_ ??? How does the reporting mean GOP is doing a bait-and-switch? \_ As characterized by one poster: "Republican Jackass starts yelling for McGovern to yield" It's not "classic" bait-and-switch, let's call it Republican variation #69. \_ Let's call it "you don't know what you're talking about" \_ Nah, I think you don't. Okay, I got it. You want me to call it a "strawman", right? Okay, it's a strawman as well. \_ yeah, yer right, it's a strawman |
| 5/24 |
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| csua.org/u/e1a -> www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/17/AR2005111700982.html The American public is way ahead of the members of Congress. The United S tates and coalition troops have done all they can in Iraq. It is evident that continued military action in Iraq is not in the best i nterest of the United States of America, the Iraqi people or the Persian Gulf region. General Casey said in a September 2005 hearing: "The perception of occupa tion in Iraq is a major driving force behind the insurgency." General Ab izaid said on the same date: "Reducing the size and visibility of the co alition forces in Iraq is a part of our counterinsurgency strategy." For two and a half years I've been concerned about US policy and the pl an in Iraq. I've addressed my concerns with the administration and the P entagon, and I've spoken out in public about my concerns. MURTHA: The main reason for going to war has been discredited. The military drew a line, a red line around Baghdad, and they said, "When US forces cro ss that line, they will be attacked by the Iraqis with weapons of mass d estruction." But the US forces -- the commander said they were prepared. They said t hey had well-trained forces with the appropriate protective gear. Now, let me tell you, we spend more money on intelligence than any -- tha n all the countries in the world put together, and more on intelligence than most country's GDP. And when they say, "It's a world intelligence f ailure," it's a US intelligence failure. It's a US failure, and it's a failure in the way the intelligence was used. I've been visiting our wounded troops in Bethesda and Walter Reed, as som e of you know, almost every week since the beginning of the war. What demoralizes them is going to war with not enough troops and equipment to make the transition to pe ace. The devastation caused by IEDs is what they're concerned about. Being dep loyed to Iraq when their homes have been ravaged by hurricanes -- you've seen these stories about some of the people whose homes were destroyed and they were deployed to Iraq after it. Being on their second or third deployment, leaving their families behind without a network of support. The threat by terrorism is real, but we have other threats that cannot be ignored. Recruitment is down even as the military has lowed its standards. They expect to take 20 percent category 4, which is the lowest category, whi ch they said they'd never take. They have been forced to do that to try to meet a reduced quota. Personnel costs are skyrocketing, particul arly in health care. We cannot allow promi ses we have made to our military families in terms of service benefits, in terms of their health care to be negotiated away. Procurement program s that ensure our military dominance cannot be negotiated away. The war in Iraq has caused huge shortfalls in our bases at home. I've bee n to three bases in the United States, and each one of them were short o f things they need to train the people going to Iraq. And I've told the CEOs of big companies, "You better get in the business of rehabilitating equi pment because we're not going to be able to buy any new equipment becaus e the money's not going to be there." George Washington said, "To be prepared for war is one of the most effect ive means of preserving peace." It takes us 18 year s to put a weapons system in the arsenal. And I don't know what the thre at is -- nobody knows what the threat is -- but we better make sure we h ave what's necessary to preserve our peace. The dire ctor of the Congressional Budget Office recently admitted to being terri fied about the deficit in the coming decades. In other words: Where's the money going to come from for defense? I believed that when we voted for these tax cuts you can't have a war and you can't have a tragedy like we had, the hurricanes, and then not have a huge deficit, which is going to increas e interest rates and could cause a real problem. This is the first prolonged war we've ever fought with three years of tax cuts without full mobilization of American industry and without a draft . I say, "Yes, there's only two of us who voted for it, so you don't h ave to worry too much about it." The military and thei r families are shouldering the burden. Our military has been fighting this war in Iraq for over two and a half y ears. Our military has accomplished its mission and done its duty. Our m ilitary captured Saddam Hussein, captured or killed his closest associat es, but the war continues to intensify. Deaths and injuries are growing, and over 2,079 of confirmed American dea ths, over 15,500 have been seriously injured -- half of them returned to duty -- and it's estimated over 50,000 will suffer from what I call bat tle fatigue. And there have been reports at least 30,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed. I just recently visited Anbar province in Iraq in order to assess the con ditions on the ground. And last May -- last May -- we put in the emergen cy supplemental spending bill Moran amendment, which was accepted in con ference, which required the secretary of defense to submit a quarterly r eport and accurately measure the stability and security in Iraq. So I've just come from Iraq and I 've looked at the next report. I'm disturbed by the findings in the key indicator areas. Oil production and energy production are below prewar level. You remember they said that was going to pay for the war, and it's below prewar leve l Our reconstruction efforts have been crippled by the security situation. Only $9 billion of $18 billion appropriated for reconstruction has been spent. And I said on the floor of the House, when they passed the $87 billion, t he $18 billion was the most important part of it because you've got to g et people back to work; Now, they tell you in the United States it's less than that. But in Iraq, they told me it's 60 percent, when I was there. And, most importantly -- this is the most important point -- incidents ha ve increased from 150 a week to over 700 in the last year. Instead of at tacks going down over a time when we had additional more troops, attacks have grown dramatically. Since the revolution at Abu Ghraib, American c asualties have doubled. You'll see one per day average before Abu Ghrai b After Abu Ghraib, you'll see two a day -- two killed per day because of the dramatic impact that Abu Ghraib had on what we were doing. And the State Department reported in 2004, right before they quit putting reports out, that indicated a sharp increase in global terrorism. I said over a year ago now, the military and the administration agrees no w that Iraq cannot be won militarily. I said two year ago, "The key to p rogress in Iraq is Iraqitize, internationalize and energize." Now, we have a packet for you where I sent a letter to the president in S eptember and I got an answer back from the assistant secretary of defens e five months later. MURTHA: Bush One might not like the criticism and constructive suggestion , but he listened to what we had to say. I believe and I have concluded the presence of US troops in Iraq is imp eding this progress. Our troops have become the primary target of the in surgency. They are united against US forces, and we have become a cata lyst for violence. US troops are the common enemy of the Sunnis, the S addamists and the foreign jihadists. And let me tell you, they haven't c aptured any in this latest activity, so this idea that they're coming in from outside, we still think there's only 7 percent. I believe with a US troop redeployment, the Iraqi security forces will be incentivized to take control. A poll recently conducted -- this is a British poll reported in the Washington Times -- over 80 percent of Iraq is are strongly opposed to the presence of coalition forces and about 45 percent of Iraqi population believe attacks against American troops are justified. I believe before the I raqi elections, scheduled for mid-December, the Iraqi people and the eme rging government must be put on notice: The United States will immediate ly redeploy -- immediately redeploy. No schedule which can be changed, nothing that's controlled by the Iraqis , this is an immediate redeployment of our American forces because they have become ... |
| www.dailykos.com/story/2005/11/18/163220/03 kos Fri Nov 18, 2005 at 02:32:20 PM PDT Spot the differences between the two versions of the "Murtha resolution". Murtha's resolution: Whereas Congress and the American People have not been shown clear, meas urable progress toward establishment of stable and improving security i n Iraq or of a stable and improving economy in Iraq, both of which are essential to "promote the emergence of a democratic government"; Whereas additional stabilization in Iraq by U, S military forces cannot be achieved without the deployment of hundreds of thousands of additio nal U S troops, which in turn cannot be achieved without a military dr aft; Whereas more than $277 billion has been appropriated by the United State s Congress to prosecute US military action in Iraq and Afghanistan; Whereas, as of the drafting of this resolution, 2,079 US troops have b een killed in Operation Iraqi Freedom; Whereas US forces have become the target of the insurgency, Whereas, according to recent polls, over 80% of the Iraqi people want U S forces out of Iraq; Whereas polls also indicate that 45% of the Iraqi people feel that the a ttacks on US forces are justified; Whereas, due to the foregoing, Congress finds it evident that continuing US military action in Iraq is not in the best interests of the Unite d States of America, the people of Iraq, or the Persian Gulf Region, wh ich were cited in Public Law 107-243 as justification for undertaking s uch action; Therefore be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of t he United States of America in Congress assembled, That: Section 1 The deployment of United States forces in Iraq, by direction of Congress, is hereby terminated and the forces involved are to be red eployed at the earliest practicable date. Section 2 A quick-reaction US force and an over-the-horizon presence of US Marines shall be deployed in the region. Section 3 The United States of America shall pursue security and stabili ty in Iraq through diplomacy. And here's the GOP "rewrite": The GOP version: RESOLUTION Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately . Resolved, That it is the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately. The Resolution is only binding on the House of Representatives. The line in the sand will be drawn between those who support a culture of life by bring ing our troops home and those who support a culture of death by having o ur troops remain in Iraq to face daily IED assaults. The details of the withdrawal will be done by the Executive Branch of the government's Dep artment of Defense. In reality it would take 6 months to a year before w e could move forces completely out of Iraq. If a Dem votes for it, then the Repugs can label that Dem as labeled as b eing for "cut and run". If a Dem votes for it, then the Repugs can say label that Dem as for the war. none / 1) but it does not appear to be working, and it appears to actually be backf iring: b/c the truth of Murtha's resolution (and not the fake one the GO P have presented) is, in spirit, a force of history that will not be sto pped in the long run. This whole thing is an indication of the DESPERATION of the GOP: they hav e reacted to Murtha in a predictably partisan, childish way. But Murtha' s hawk credentials are inpeccable, and his views are now what the MAJORI TY of Americans feel--including and especially the military. Parent I like it ( 400 / 2) Now the entire Congress can vote against this resolution, and the GOP spi n can no longer use the talking point that the Dems want troops out of I raq immediately. Most Dems that I know (and I apologize if this is not the case with most Dkos folks) want the troops out of Iraq, but they want them out via a lo gical timetable. However, the GOP always spins this by saying that the Dems want the troop s out with no timetable. Anytime the GOP says that the Dems want to "recklessly pull the troops out of Iraq" we can say, " Hell no, we voted against immediate. Now, let's talk about removing the m on that timetable". Voila - we still own the debate, and we've taken away their biggest talki ng point. none / 0) Us here at dKos would have to endure boiling invective about how they're leaving the party and voting for the ghost of Mahatma Gandhi or some suc h from folks like the poster above you if the Dems take your strategy. none / 0) that's what I do when I really can't stand it. Are we still routinely torturing helpless prisoners, and if so, does it f eel right that we as American citizens are not outraged by the practice? none / 0) Why do they keep saying that withdrawing would mean the troops died in ve in? It's the decision to go to war for no reason that the troops died a nd are dying in vein. none / 1) The troops only die in vain when there is a failed policy backed by faile d planning and poor support, as in the Bush Administration's prosecution of this war. Pulling our troops out of this situation is not only good policy but it honors the sacrifices of our soldiers and recognizes how much we as Americans really value all of our troops be they dead or aliv e We memorialize our dead soldiers and marines every year and in some i nstances every day. However, more deaths in Iraq do not honor these dea d soldiers and marines. This type of thinking is fatally flawed both fig uratively and literally. none / 0) again, every chance he gets he blames the Democrats for the recruitment o f terrorists. Davis would stifle dissent a nd frank discussion of an important issue. Disagreement with the war me ans you side with the terrorists. He is implying that the dems i n the House are recruiting terrorists! none / 0) That is exactly what the GOP did to Dems in the '02 midterms. When you ca n compare your political opponents to OBL and Satan, and get away with i t, why change the playbook? none / 0) I asked if she ever served, and then I asked the young man by what date M arsha wants our troops home by? But I let him know I w asn't happy with the idea of our troops being there indefinitely. "Who are these dirty nasty people making comments about John Murtha?" The fun thing is to prete nd that you are more or less a fellow traveller. "I don't think we shoul d cut and run like that Democrat, but how long does Congressman so-and-s o think we should be in Iraq? " "Who are these dirty nasty people making comments about John Murtha?" none / 0) CSPAN has a question "immediate troop withdrawal" and gives phone number options to support "democrats" or "president" and "others." The question insinuates as if teh Democrats want an immediate withdrawal! Parent Okay, That's Bullshit ( 400 / 3) If you want them to vote on Murtha's resolution to see if the other Democ rats agree with him, leave it alone and let them vote on it. "George W Bush has helped those who have most, hurt those who have least and ignored everyone in between." none / 0) not actually putting Murtha's resolution to a vote is pure BS by the repu bs and dems by all means should fall for this trap. vote 'present' for this one and perha ps hold a parallel vote on Murtha's resolution elsewhere (a la Conyers a nd the 30-something dems). Below is a verse from the Bible: ISAIAH 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its settin g That there is none besides Me I am the LORD, and there is no other. Now, do you agree with the above passage, or are you anti-Christianity? "George W Bush has helped those who have most, hurt those who have least and ignored everyone in between." none / 0) First off, no Republicn will vote for the Rep version. If a Dem votes for it, then the Repugs can label that Dem as labeled as b eing for "cut and run". If a Dem votes for it, then the Repugs can say label that Dem as for the war. By just saying present they do neither, but show they are there. none / 1) They should point out the Republican plan is an indefinite occupation of Iraq. Also, point out the fact that most of the "Coalition of the Willing" has already pulled out. "Who are these dirty nasty people making comments about John Murtha?" none /... |
| cnn.com -> www.cnn.com/ About 250 prisoners freed from Abu Ghraib The United States today freed about 250 detainees from Abu Ghraib prison, site of alleged abuses that prompted global outrage and led to days of hearings on Capitol Hill. Today marks the first mass prisoner release since the abuse scandal broke several weeks ago. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had visited the prison Thursday. |
| foxnews.com -> www.foxnews.com/ Round Two Ends Town hall style presidential debate comes to a close in St. GET YOUR WEATHER Type in your zip code, or city, state or country for your current conditi ons and five day forecast. |