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| 5/24 |
| 2005/11/10-12 [Politics/Foreign/Asia/China] UID:40535 Activity:moderate |
11/10 Top state Dem in FL proposes mandatory Spanish in K-2 in FL schools:
http://www.nbc-2.com/articles/readarticle.asp?articleid=4859
My favorite quote: "I've heard it the other way that English was the
language here and that's the way it's going to be. On the other hand,
there **is** [emphasis mine] a lot of Spanish people here. No, it
doesn't surprise me. I just don't like it," said parent Ed Barrick.
Looks like they need more English teaching first.
\_ Spanish or Latino?
\_ Yeah, let them all learn Spanish, so that those of us who speak
Asian languages will be in higher demand and can ask for higher
salaries.
\_ When everyone in the US speaks Spanish you will be at a
*disadvantage* when you cannot.
\_ Yeah, if you want to work at Walmart.
\_ You will when Walmart is the only industry left in the
US! (Which will be about the same time when everyone
in the US speaks Spanish)
\_ Uh....right, but that brings us two levels back up to
the thread to where us Mandarin speakers will still
be employed. Of course, I don't seriously believe any
of that anyway. Spanish will never replace English
anywhere that matters to tech people.
\_ Wow, I don't think I could've telegraphed that
sarcasm anymore clearly. -pp
\_ How can you possibly perceive Mandarin to ever
be more important to US business than Spanish?
Even with all the trade with China, Spanish is
the more useful language in the USA.
\_ Uhhh... He never said that it would be more
important, just that rarity confers value.
\_ Yes, I am sure your tech company is
willing to pay so much more for you if you
can speak some rarely used language like
Inukitut. Rarity doesn't confer value as much
as demand does in this instance.
\_ You are correct. That's supply and
demand. Sorry I didn't state it more
clearly.
\_ There are, what, a billion people who speak
Mandarin natively? In the end, jobs that will
stay in the US will require good English
communication skills. It's much easier to
find someone who speaks Mandarin well than
someone who speaks English well.
\_ I had thought this conversation was a
dumb as it could possibly get, but you
have brought it to a new low.
Congratulations.
\_ I'm guessing you don't work in the
industry. This article reflects
reality quite well.
http://www.slate.com/id/2126685
When we were hiring a FAE in China, we
hired one that could speak English best.
The marketing guy the FAE reported to
(who owned the Huawei account) is a
mid-30's white guy who couldn't speak a
word of Chinese. When we hired him,
we were looking for a guy who could help
us formulate and communicate a strategy;
Chinese was not even on the list of
requirements.
\_ you gotta becareful with your
decision. FAE requires to talk to
engineers, and engineers in general
don't have good foreign language
skill. Be able to speak Chinese
is much more advantageous. But such
advantage won't be seen by those who
don't interact with customers at
their native language level.
-system engineer work in ASIA
\_ Right. Whhat I meant was we chose
the Mandarin speaker who could speak
English best. For us, Chinese is a
requirement for firstline in-
country types, but it is at best
a low nice-to-have for higher-
level jobs.
\_ And so you continue to make an
irrelevent point.
\_ No, the point is that Chinese gets
you jobs in China. English gets
you jobs here. This will be even
more true in the future, if you
assume that globalization is
efficient.
\_ And speaking both well will
get you jobs in both.
Which was the orginal point.
\_ And my point is that it's
much more important to speak
English well, if one is
interested in employment
in the States. I've
observed that the vast
majority of the Mandarine
types here don't speak English
well at all. There is a vast
difference between being able
to communicate in a language
and being able to communicate
well in a language.
_\
I don't know about tech, but I know many BA/
MBA friends getting sourcing/purchasing type jobs
where Chinese either helps or is essential. One
just got sent to Beijing with a really nice
package including a US$5000 per month housing
allowance to setup operations there (John Deere).
My gf also does sourcing for her
small US employer, and she says she has already
saved her employer $500k per year after working
for a few months on switching to China sources.
As for tech, I am not sure if it would always
be doing management here, and tech stuff there.
I think China is only just getting started.
Knowing English and Mandarin well is a good
advantage. The fact that most Chinese here and
in China don't speak English well just means it's
even more valuable that one speaks English well,
AND knows Chinese.
\_ My guess is that marketing and mid+ management will
stay here, first level management and individual
contributors will ultimately all get outsourced.
Definition will stay in the States, design and
manufacturing abroad. All of which says you'd
better be able to communicate well if you want to
prosper here. Chinese may get you a job, but
prosper job here. Chinese may get you a job, but
English gets you ahead. In the end, knowing
Chinese may be no more useful than knowing C for
someone in tech. How many mid or senior management
types actually know C or think it matters? How
types actually know C or thinks it matters? How
many marketing types? Now consider what that means
when coding and first-level management is outsourced
to China.
\_ Marketing depends on where the market is.
For instance, cell phones, the China market
is huge, and I doubt you will know how
to market there if you don't know Chinese.
As for management, as China develops from
a manufacturing base to a more mature
economy with big demands for imports, the
number of good jobs requiring Chinese will
continue to grow. Sure, if you are the
stay home type and want to remain in the US,
and get ahead, you need to be good at English.
Nobody is arguing about that. But even
if staying here, knowing Chinese is an
added advantage, that will likely become
more and more valuable going forward, again,
in terms of the number of jobs where Chinese
helps or is a requirement.
\_ The problem is we are finite beings. There is
a limit to how much we can know and how much
time we have to learn. Knowing Chinese is
valuable. So is knowing Spanish, or French,
or Swahili. Some things are more useful than
others. Given you cannot learn everything,
you have to decide what to learn. So learn
Chinese? Sure. So long as you make sure
you know English well first. Now, how many
of you chest-thumping Chinese speakers speak
English well?
\_ Learning a new language from scratch is
tough. On the other hand if you
already speak English and Chinese well,
you should gloat over your superior
you should gloat about your superior
language abilities, and rub it in on
people who seem bitter about it.
\_ Uh, you do realize there are regional differences in
vocabulary and grammar in English (as well as most languages).
\_ I'm a bit disappointed that nobody here seems to have even thought
of the positive implications of teaching the kids _any_ foreign
language (Spanish, Chinese, who gives) just to get them used to the
idea of learning something unfamiliar and getting them to think
a bit more internationally. The Chinese and Indian kids coming to
the US speaking English, and the European students who've been
learning English/German/French/Spanish/whatever, some of them from
grade 1 (however badly they speak it is another issue) should tell
you something. -John
\_ In general Americans, esp. the isolated, non-coastal Red states
don't really give a damn about thinking internationally. At any
rate they (freepers) should learn their own language first.
\_ International thinking is fine and all but frankly most of them
will never set foot outside the country or ever have a need for
a second language. I'd prefer they learn to read/write English.
Hey, maybe knowing some basic math without a calculator would
be nice, too.
\_ I have a feeling that USA is going to become to what happened to
Roman Empire in the good old days, where the official language
(Latin) is different than what is more commonly spoken through
out the empire (Ancient Greek).
\_ The US doesn't have an official language.
\- Ave. some comments: 1. the greek of homer != the greek of
polybius or the biblical writers. the Koine greek was sort of a
lower vernacular or sloppy greek. i believe "ancient greek"
usually refers to an older version of the language 2. latin and
the koine were the second languages for a lot of people distant
from rome or athens. 3. the koine while somewhat common to the
east, a legacy of alexander...and indeed would later be adopted
by the eastern roman empire,was not common in the western
empire, where latin would be used more than the koine (and of
course the church of rome in the west would go with their own
brand of latin). FYI, probably the top scholar on the
flavor of latin). FYI, probably the top scholar on the
relationship between Rome and the Hellenic/Hellenistic world(s?)
is E GRUEN/UCB History. you may wish to see say Chapeter V
http://csua.org/u/dzh and Chapter 2,7 in http://csua.org/u/dzi
Graecia capta ferum victorem capit. --Horace. ok vale. |
| 5/24 |
|
| www.nbc-2.com/articles/readarticle.asp?articleid=4859 WMP 9 or higher required LEE COUNTY A proposal in Tallahassee is causing a stir in schools in Sout hwest Florida. The state's top democrat is supporting a plan to make Spa nish classes mandatory for all students in kindergarten through second g rade, just like English or Math. The youngest students in Southwest Florida's public school system could s oon be saying hola to a new language. A proposed law would make Spanish mandatory for students in kindergarten through second grade. "I frankly believe, the earlier you teach someone, the better it is," sai d George Muentes, an English as a second language teacher. The law would make Spanish a core class like math and science. It would a lso force school officials to shuffle an already crowded schedule." The length of the school day won't change, but the Spanish would have to be squeezed in somewhere, which means a few popular classes may have to be cut to make room. "The options would be the specials, the arts, music and PE. But here in C harlotte County those are very important to us," said Mike Riley of the Charlotte County school district. But the thought of ma ndatory Spanish classes is already a controversial subject with some par ents. "I've heard it the other way that English was the language here and that' s the way it's going to be. On the other hand, there is a lot of Spanish people here. Senate Bill 522 is making its way through the legislature. But one top de cision maker says creating the new law is unnecessary. I don't know that we need to mandate it, frankly," said Florida Attorney General Charlie Crist. The idea may be controversial, but it may not be too long before bi-lingu al books become standard for local students. |
| www.slate.com/id/2126685 The massive space was entirely filled with row upon row o f booths manned by Chinese sales reps. They were hawking Chinese-made va cuum cleaners and power tools, fans and air conditioners, masking tape a nd panini presses, drill bits and tape measures, shovels and irons, cloc ks and coffee makers, juicers, and blow-dryers. What was just as remarkable as the goods on display was the incompetent s alesmanship that accompanied them. Here is a piece of good news for Amer ica: The Chinese can make anything, but they still need us to teach them how to sell it. Det roit Auto Show feature hot spokesmodels waxing rhapsodic about products and rent-a-celebrities. The manufacturers' sales reps are always prossm ooth-talking, impeccably dressed, generally good-looking men and women w hose patter is polished to the same sheen as their loafers and heels. An yone who expresses the slightest interest in the product is met with a s incere, firm handshake, a demand for a business card, and contact inform ation. And they won't let you move on without a heap of sales literature . But my experience in Hall 16 of the Messe Dsseldorf was quite different than anything I've experienced at a US trade show. I helped myself to the brochure and asked how much it would cost for 1,000 blenders. Their English was only marginally better than my nonexistent Chinese. The older man took his cigarette out fr om between his teeth, which were the color of a nice dark flan, and blew smoke in my general direction. I couldn't understand whether he was say ing eight, 18, or 80, and so finally we reverted to what the Phoenicians must have done millennia ago when they plied the Mediterranean. I scrib bled down numbers on a tablet and asked him to circle the right answer. The man and woman at a booth selling novelty products were somewhat more solicitousperhaps too much so. Their main product was a ball with a bun ch of tentacles springing from it, a battery-powered head-scratcher/mass ager. Between the w hirring, I could hear the woman speak of how the product "is reaching yo ur acupuncture pressure points and increasing blood flow." But after a while, I got a head rush an d began to feel slightly dizzy, like when I drank Slurpees too fast as a kid. I looked up to see the lady grabbing the belt of one of my traveli ng companions and attempting to jam a vibrating back-massager into the s mall of his back. Now, one shouldn't expect that Chinese sales and marketing practices woul d be as advanced as their manufacturing techniques. Manufacturing is a m atter of applying labor and processes to raw materials, over and over ag ain. A culture of successful manufacturing can be engineered from the to p down. That's one reason many countries without a tradition of market e conomics, like China, have been able to master manufacturing relatively quickly. They involve persuasio n and suggestion rather than command. It's not always enough simply to h ave a product of adequate quality available at a low price. Salespeople have to offer potential customers a reason to choose their product over the rival products available in the marketplace. China has an ancient me rchant culture, but communism seems to have damaged its service economy. The blender salesmen behaved like indifferent bureaucrats. Slipping a cold piece of met al into somebody's pants is generally not a winning sales tactic. The United States has lost its manufacturing edge to China. But we still have a massive competitive advantage in sales and marketing, no matter w hat the cost differential between the two countries. The United States, after all, is where modern advertising, marketing, and brands were inven ted. Lenovo didn't want IBM's personal-computer b usiness for its manufacturing processes. The Chinese computer market wan ted the unit for its American management, its strength in finance, marke ting, and sales. Today, companies from wealthier countries outsource production to China t o compete effectively in a global market. But we may increasingly find t hat Chinese companies have to outsource sales, public relations, and adv ertising back to us. net), who writes Slate's Moneybox colum n, just returned from a trip to Germany sponsored by the Atlantik-Brucke Foundation. Photograph of Chinese flag on the Slate home page by China Pix/Getty Imag es. Human Nature: Should You Have To Tell Your Husband About Your Abortio n? Isn't That Spousal Fourteen years ago, Judge Samuel Alito voted to uphold a Pennsylvania law that required mar... DVD Extras: Why You Shouldnt Play Yourself in the Movie of Your Life Luck, Pluck, and Thuggery For obvious reasons, 50 Cent's new film Get Rich or Die Tryin' will be co mpared to Eminem's... |
| csua.org/u/dzh -> www.amazon.com/gp/product/0520204832/104-2814451-5843101?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance T H Harver, The Classical Review "The real merit of Gruen's studies is that there is far more to agree wit h than contest." Suggestion Box Your comments can help make our site better for everyone. If you've found something incorrect, broken, or frustrating on this page, let us know s o that we can improve it. Please note that we are unable to respond dire ctly to suggestions made via this form. Comments or Examples: Examples: Missing information such as dimensions and model number, typos, inaccuracies, etc. |
| csua.org/u/dzi -> www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801480418/104-2814451-5843101?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance considers the means and the extent to whic h the Roman aristocracy assimilated Greek culture and, in assimilating i t, asserted their own separate Roman identity. "--Choice Product Details * Paperback: 347 pages * Publisher: Cornell University Press (July, 1995) * Language: English * ISBN: 0801480418 * Product Dimensions: 92 x 61 x 09 inches * Shipping Weight: 13 pounds. Suggestion Box Your comments can help make our site better for everyone. If you've found something incorrect, broken, or frustrating on this page, let us know s o that we can improve it. Please note that we are unable to respond dire ctly to suggestions made via this form. |