11/03   I wasn't involved in the discussion below, but you self-righteous
        do-gooders really blow my mind.  I'm curious as to just how rampant
        this type of (un)thinking is.  It is time for a poll -phuqm

        It is reasonable ...

        to force children to have HPV vaccinations: .

        unless they are Christian scientists or other similar wingnuts:

        to allow parents to make this decision based on whatever beliefs: .
        \_ So you disagree with mandating vaccinations in general?  Or is
           it just this vaccination that is nearly always effective against
           a virus that will give you or your female partner cancer?
           \_ dude, what is so hard about putting a little '.' next to the
              first choice?  Why would I want to talk to you if you aren't
              willing to play along with my poll?  Because I'm such a nice
              guy I will assume that the first . in that category is yours
              and will answer your question soon thereafter.  -phuqm
              \_ I'm contesting your question because it's loaded.  If you
                 can't ask a direct question, don't expect a direct answer,
                 crebbs. --scotsman
                 --scotsman
                  \_ so you have some policy against answering loaded
                     questions? What are you a politician?  feel free to
                     add your own category if you think these don't cover
                     all the basis, but I don't see what is wrong with the
                     way these are phrased (unless you object to me calling
                     C.scientists wingnuts, but somehow i doubt that is
                     is the problem.) If there is some other problem I'd LOVE
                     to see an explanation of it. -phuqm
                 \_ Oh, and you know who I am, and I know who I am, and so
                    do most people here who care, so is it really necessary
                    to keep outing me? (anyway i'm not him)
                    \_ Hmm... Should we tell root to squish his account
                       for sharing it?
                    \_ yes you are. -phuqm
                         \_ bastard.
                            \_ yep. -phuqm
                               \_ Or maybe they could squish you for talking
                                  to yourself...
                                  \_ if that's squishable, then I will have a
                                     tough time coming up with a defense.
           \_ So, yeah, i'm rabid libertarian and - despite the obvious free
           \_ So, yeah, i'm a rabid libertarian and - despite the obvious free
              rider problem - I never think it is o.k. to force a parent to
              allow the government to inject something into their child. I
              don't really care if the person's reason is that he thinks the
              vial is full of little deamons that are going to steal his kids
              soul; to me it is a simple question of who decides: the govmnt.
              vial is full of little demons that are going to steal his kids
              soul; to me it is a simple question of who decides.
              \_ Do you also disagree with forcing kids to go to school?
                 What about the government taking kids away from parents who
                 the government deems incompetent? Just curious.
              \_ If you were to live on an isolated desert island where
                 your choices had no effect on other ppl, then this line
                 of thinking makes sense. However, if you are living in
                 a place w/ thousands of ppl your choice not to vaccinate
                 your children can have a profound effect on the health
                 of other children. What right do you have to ask other
                 ppl to sacrifice their childrens health?
                 As I said below, once you agree to live in society there
                 is no such thing as an abs. right. Think of it as the
                 price of admission.
                 \_ Why would it have a profound effect on other children?
                    The other children would be vaccinated if the other
                    people are worried.
        \_ Once you agree to live in society there is no such thing as
           an abs. right. Every right is subject to some amt. of regulation
           by the legislature/executive. If the gov feels that the best or
           only way to deal w/ a major health problem is mass vaccination
           and they have proof that the means chosen (mass vaccination) are
           the best or only way to deal w/ the problem, then you have three
           choices - go along w/ the vaccination, get the law repealed OR
           leave society.
            \_ indeed. though I fail to see what relevence this has on this
               discussion.  I would also point out (also somewhat ir-
               relevantly) that there are few places left on the planet not
               claimed as the dominion of some "society" or other, which makes
               that last option increasingly difficult. -phuqm
               \_ If this is a major health problem only option 1 makes sense.
                  Options 2 and 3 suggest that regardless of a finding that
                  this is a major health problem, the kooks have some rights
                  that trump. I'm saying no. Any right the kooks have are
                  subordinate to society's interest in the general welfare.
                  There are plenty of places in this world where society
                  doesn't really reach (different than claimed as territory
                  by some nation).
                  You can't let a bunch of kooks run around and not vaccinate
                  their kids b/c anything less than total vaccination will be
                  ineffective. If the legislature finds that this is a major
                  health problem, I'm willing to defer to that judgment b/c
                  the whole reason they were elected was to make this sort of
                  decisions (via advice from qualified agencies, &c.)
                  \_ Well, I guess it's ok so long as it's someone right
                     thinking like you deciding what is in the best interest
                     of society.
            \_ You are skipping forward to the assumption that this is a
               'major health problem'.  Also, no one ever acknowledged that
               drug companies have sold us plenty of crap over the years that
               causes side effects such as sterility, liver failure, heart
               failure, kidney failure, and death.  Don't worry, it was all
               tested!  Yay!  You're still fucked and can't undo the damage.
               I guess we'll just raise taxes to pay for all the law suits.
               \_ It's major if you're a woman.
               \_ I'm not skipping forward. I'm merely saying that if the
                  gov. finds that this is a major health problem, they have
                  the pwr to act on it w/o having to worry about the rights
                  of the kooks.