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| 5/25 |
| 2005/9/26-28 [Politics/Domestic/911, Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:39879 Activity:high |
9/26 A few more bad apples:
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html
\_ http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1490301/posts
\_ The third post is the best.
\_ http://csua.org/u/dii (LA Times)
"[CPT Fishback] wrote that Army guidance was 'too vague for
officers to enforce American values.' He concluded that violations
of the Geneva Convention were 'systematic, and the Army is
misleading America.'"
\_ if USA is not subject to international jurisdiction, this
thing will happen. If you guys recall, even those who
are responsible for May Lai only got a slap on the wrist.
My favorite story is IR655. They actually got metals for
shooting down an airliner.
\_ Doesn't he know there's a war going on?
\_ That's just great. We should disband the Army and use harsh
words when our enemies invade. I totally lost faith in our
military. All those people they have helped mean nothing when
they are misleading America! For shame!
\_ Did you read at all about the taxi driver who was beaten
to death in Afghanistan? The totally innocent, not a
terrorist, taxi driver. How many more taxi drivers are we
torturing? Laws aren't there just to protect the guilty.
\_ this is not few bad apples. This is systematic abuse that is
directed by people all the way to the top (recall Pentagon decided
that Geneva Convention doesn't apply to war on terror?)
\_ Your sarcasm filter is set too low. Of course it's not a
few bad apples. Of course it goes to the top.
\_ And the Geneva Convention should apply to non-state actors
who do not adhere to it b/c WHY? The executive needs the
fifth freedom in order to properly deal with the enemies
of the republic.
\_ You're one sick monkey. How 'bout you sign up and go over
there? With statements like this, I bet you'd fit right in
with the other PUC fuckers.
\_ The Geneva convention is irrelevant here, except for the
fact that it provides for the protection of civilians when
possible, which we can argue about. However, last I checked,
the US was a civilized country, and civilized countries do not
condone, defend or justify abuse of prisoners of any sort.
There is no argument about this. This is not torture to find
the location of the bomb that'll go off, or punishment, it is
wrong, I don't care what sort of scumbag is being abused. I
don't think this is a case of the military or the US "system"
or whatever being fundamentally fux0red, but there is no
excusing this at all. -John
\_ Well said!
\_ When rights are accorded to prisoners in the context of
war it is b/c there is an implicit understanding that
those same rights will be accorded to our own who are
captured. When this implicit understanding is no longer
true, there can be no claim of rights - as they reserve the
the right to use any and all means against the republic,
so too must the republic reserve that same right. The
extent to which this right is exercised is a matter solely
for the discretion of the executive.
\_ Or in other words, the "they started it!" defense.
Sorry, it doesn't fly; we are signatories to the
Geneva Convention and our treatment of prisoners of
war must be subject to those rules, even if we
think our opponent wouldn't afford us the same
protection. -tom
\_ Conventions only apply amongst those who
actually sign the convention. The provisions
of the convention do not apply to non-parties.
The non-state actors who currently oppose the
republic are non-signatories and therefore
have no claim to rights under the convention.
Furthermore, the geneva convention only applies
to conventional warfare, not this current type
of conflict.
\_ The present Convention shall apply to the
persons referred to in Article 4 from the
time they fall into the power of the
enemy and until their final release and
repatriation.
Should any doubt arise as to whether
persons, having committed a belligerent
act and having fallen into the hands of
the enemy, belong to any of the
categories enumerated in Article 4, such
persons shall enjoy the protection of the
present Convention until such time as
their status has been determined by a
competent tribunal.
[Shocking news, Gonzalez/Rumsfeld ignore this
provising. -tom]
provision. -tom]
\_ No, being a civilized country and adhering to absolute
standards of civilization is not at the discretion of
the executive. Look up "moral high ground". -John
the executive. Are you saying that "the executive"
knows of and condones (or even orders) this sort of
thing? Note that we are not even talking about Matt
Gonzalez' "torture is OK in some circumstances" memo,
but random abuse. Or are you saying that the executive
doesn't have a clue what the armed forces under its
command are up to? I am curious. -John
\_ My view is that the executive branch needs unlimited
pwr to defend the republic - the means which they
choose to employ are at their sole discretion. If
they choose to condone this conduct, then so be it.
If they choose to prosecute this conduct, then that
is okay as well. If they don't know and they choose
not to find out b/c they have something more impt.
to do that is okay as well.
I also reject the view that there is something
special about civilization that compels us to act
in a particular way w/in and w/out. Inside the
walls of civilization I agree that there must be
civilized conduct, but outside, in the jungle,
if civilized conduct is a liability then those
charged w/ the protection of civilization must
be free to dispense w/ civilized conduct.
\_ You're right, so as you're outside the walls of
my civilization, let's have GUN DUEL. -John
\_ Not sure if a gun duel is legal. How about
a StarTrek phaser duel? Is that legal? |
| 5/25 |
|
| www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1108972,00.html CHRIS HONDROS / GETTY A Marine stands watch during midnight patrol near Camp Mercury Web Exclusive | Nation Pattern of Abuse A decorated Army officer reveals new allegations of detainee mistreatment in Iraq and Afghanistan. Senate sources tell TIME that the Captain has also reported his charges to three senior Rep ublican senators: Majority Leader Bill Frist, Armed Services Committee c hairman John Warner and John McCain, a former torture victim in Vietnam. A Senate Republican staffer familiar with both the Captain and his alle gations told TIME he appeared "extremely credible." The new allegations center around systematic abuse of Iraqi detainees by men of the 82nd Airborne at Camp Mercury, a forward operating base locat ed near Fallujah, the scene of a major uprising against the US occupat ion in April 2004, according to sources familiar with the report and acc ounts given by the Captain, who is in his mid-20s, to Senate staff. Much of the abuse allegedly occurred in 2003 and 2004, before and during the period the Army was conducting an internal investigation into the Abu G hraib prison scandal, but prior to when the abuses at Abu Ghraib became public. Other alleged abuses described in the Human Rights report occurr ed at Camp Tiger, near Iraq's border with Syria, and previously in Afgha nistan. In addition, the report details what the Captain says was his un successful effort over 17 months to get the attention of military superi ors. The Human Rights Watch reportas well as accounts given to Senate staffd escribe officers as aware of the abuse but routinely ignoring or coverin g it up, amid chronic confusion over US military detention policies an d whether or not the Geneva Convention applied. The Captain is quoted in the report describing how military intelligence personnel at Camp Mercu ry directed enlisted men to conduct daily beatings of prisoners prior to questioning; to subject detainees to strenuous forced exercises to the point of unconsciousness; and to expose them to extremes of heat and col dall methods designed to produce greater cooperation with interrogators . Non-uniformed personnelapparently working for the Central Intelligenc e Agency, according to the soldiersalso interrogated prisoners. The int errogators were out of view but not out of earshot of the soldiers, who overheard what they came to believe was abuse. Specific instances of abuse described in the Human Rights Watch report in clude severe beatings, including one incident when a soldier allegedly b roke a detainee's leg with a metal bat. Others include prisoners being s tacked in human pyramids (unlike the human pyramids at Abu Ghraib, the p risoners at Camp Mercury were clothed); soldiers administering blows to the face, chest and extremities of prisoners; and detainees having their faces and eyes exposed to burning chemicals, being forced into stress p ositions for long periods leading to unconsciousness and having their wa ter and food withheld. Prisoners were designated as PUCs (pronounced "pucks")or "persons under control." A regular pastime at Camp Mercury, the report says, involved o ff-duty soldiers gathering at PUC tents, where prisoners were held, and working off their frustrations in activities known as "F____a PUC" (beat ing the prisoner) and "Smoke a PUC" (forced physical exertion, sometimes to the point of collapse). Broken limbs and similar painful injuries wo uld be treated with analgesics, the soldiers claim, as medical staff wou ld fill out paperwork stating the injuries occurred during capture. Supp ort for some of the allegations of abuse come from a sergeant of the 82n d Airborne who served in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Human Rights Watch q uotes him as saying that, "To 'F____ a PUC' means to beat him up. We wou ld give them blows to the head, chest, legs, and stomach, pull them down , kick dirt on them. To 'smoke' someone is to p ut them in stress positions until they get muscle fatigue and pass out. Some days we would just get bored so we would h ave everyone sit in a corner and then make them get in a pyramid. "On their day off people would show up all the time," the sergeant contin ues in the HRW report. "Everyone in camp knew if you wanted to work out your frustration you show up at the PUC tent. One day a sergeant shows up and tells a P UC to grab a pole. He told him to bend over and broke the guy's leg with a mini Louisville Slugger that was a metal bat. The sergeant says that military intelligence officers would tell soldiers that the detainees "were bad" and had been involved in killing or tryin g to kill Americans, implying that they deserved whatever punishment the y got. At the same time we should be held to a higher standard. We should never have been allowed to watch guys we had fought." The Captain making the allegations, say those who have been in contact wi th him, gave lengthy statements to Human Rights Watch only after his att empts to report what he had seen and heard to his own chain of command, were met, he claims, with repeated brush-offs. He is currently in specia l forces training at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. The two non-commissio ned officers served in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and likewise approache d the watchdog group, but have not conferred with Senate staff. "The cap tain is a very sincere officer, and troubled by what he says he has seen ," says another senior aide to a Republican senator. "Only an investigat ion can determine how accurate his account will prove to be." |
| www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1490301/posts jmc1969 US Army troops subjected Iraqi detainees to severe beatings and other t orture at a base in central Iraq from 2003 through 2004, often under ord ers or with the approval of superior officers, according to accounts fro m soldiers released by Human Rights Watch today. Three US army personnel-two sergeants and a captain-describe routine, s evere beatings of prisoners and other cruel and inhumane treatment. In o ne incident, a soldier is alleged to have broken a detainee's leg with a baseball bat. Detainees were also forced to hold five-gallon jugs of wa ter with their arms outstretched and perform other acts until they passe d out. Soldiers also applied chemical substances to detainees' skin and eyes, and subjected detainees to forced stress positions, sleep deprivat ion, and extremes of hot and cold. Detainees were also stacked into huma n pyramids and denied food and water. The soldiers also described abuses they witnessed or participated in at another base in Iraq and during ea rlier deployments in Afghanistan. Soldiers referred to abusive techniques as "smoking" or "fu**ing" detaine es, who are known as "PUCs," or Persons Under Control. "Smoking a PUC" r eferred to exhausting detainees with physical exercises (sometimes to th e point of unconsciousness) or forcing detainees to hold painful positio ns. "Fu**ing a PUC" detainees referred to beating or torturing them seve rely. The soldiers said that Military Intelligence personnel regularly i nstructed soldiers to "smoke" detainees before interrogations. One sergeant told Human Rights Watch: "Everyone in camp knew if you wante d to work out your frustration you show up at the PUC tent. View Replies To: jmc1969 according to accounts from soldiers released by Human Rights Watch today. And is it true that they too were being tortured to make such statements? View Replies To: jmc1969 Let me guess it is a European ultra leftist organization. human rights watch major funding comes from The Open Society, George Soro s money......... View Replies To: FlingWingFlyer Soldiers told Human Rights Watch that they did this? Are they under any o bligation to speak to this organization? Did Human Rights Watch ever speak out regarding the horrific, unspeakable crimes against humanity committed by Saddam's regime? Or do they think America is the worst violator of huma n rights? Forcing guys to put underwear on their head sure is cruel! View Replies To: FlingWingFlyer Soldiers told Human Rights Watch that they did this? Are they under any o bligation to speak to this organization? Did Human Rights Watch ever speak out regarding the horrific, unspeakable crimes against humanity committed by Saddam's regime? Or do they think America is the worst violator of huma n rights? Forcing guys to put underwear on their head sure is cruel! Sure some libs preten d to care and they have bumper stickers saying how much they care about torture but when push comes to shove I have yet to actually find anyone who really gives a crap about this subject. View Replies To: jmc1969 Would you buy a used car from "three US army personnel-two sergeants an d a captain" if you didn't know who they were? These bozos can write thi s crap all day long and not reveal their sources by claiming the fear of "retaliation." At the end of the day, it's still all a load of bovine s catology. If these "two sergeants and a captain" actually do exist, they more than likely worked in a warehouse in Kuwait and never went anywher e near Iraq. He told hi m to bend over and broke the guy's leg with a mini Louisville Slugger, a metal bat." and how soldiers are being punished, I find it hard to believe that soldiers were telling HRW these stories. View Replies To: jmc1969 That is old news, but while we are at it, How many American soldiers and civilians have been captured or kidnapped by the terrorists? Further sti ll how many have been beheaded or shot in the head, mutilated and/or rap ed? How many of these captives are still being held by the terrorists? In my opinion, they ask for no quarter, then why should we give them quar ter. View Replies Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works. |
| csua.org/u/dii -> seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002520955_abuse26.html Ian Fishback told his company and battalion commanders that soldiers were abusing Iraqi prisoners in violation of th e Geneva Convention, he says he was told those rules are easily skirted. When he wrote a memo complaining that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld w as wrong in telling Congress the Army follows the Geneva dictates, his l ieutenant colonel responded only: "I am aware of Fishback's concerns." He said Harvey told him that "corrective action was al ready taken." At every turn, it seemed, the decorated young West Point graduate and son of a Vietnam War veteran felt that the military had shut him out. He said he sought guidance from fellow infantry commanders and his West P oint classmates, and learned that they agreed with him that abuse of pri soners was widespread and that officers weren't adequately trained in ho w to treat detainees. Then, in a lengthy chronology recounting what he saw in Iraq and his nume rous efforts to get the Army's attention, he wrote that "Harvey is wrong ." He wrote that Army guidance was "too vague for officers to enforce Am erican values." He concluded that violations of the Geneva Convention we re "systematic, and the Army is misleading America." This summer, after weighing the possible effects on his career, he steppe d outside the Army's chain of command and telephoned the Human Rights Wa tch advocacy group. He later met with aides on the Senate Armed Services Committee. On Friday, he authorized them to make public his allegations, along with those of two sergeants, of widespread prisoner abuse they witnessed when they served in Iraq in 2003 and 2004 as members of the Army's 82nd Airb orne Division. Within hours, the Army announced that it had opened a criminal felony inv estigation. advertising The review is the first major investigation by the military of widespread prisoner abuse outside the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, and the first tim e such a review has targeted regular Army soldiers rather than the Natio nal Guardsmen and reservists in the Abu Ghraib case. But for Fishback, who friends describe as a deeply religious Christian an d patriot who prays before meals and can quote the Constitution, his ord eal may be just beginning. Army officials have temporarily furloughed him from Special Operations tr aining school at Fort Bragg, NC, to make him available to the Criminal Investigation Command as it sorts through his allegations. Sources clos e to the case said investigators are pressing him to identify the two se rgeants who have backed up his accusations something he does not want to do for the sake of all their careers. Dan Zupan, who teaches th e rules of war at West Point and was one of Fishback's mentors. "Do the right thing" A former soldier close to Fishback, who asked not to be identified out of respect for Fishback's own decision not to talk to the media, said Fish back "really doesn't care what happens to him. To back his claims, two as-yet-unnamed sergeants came forward, telling Hu man Rights Watch they saw soldiers break a prisoner's leg, kick and punc h others, and force yet others to hold large water jugs for long periods of time or stack themselves into human pyramids. They said the practice involved numerous soldiers and continued over a si x-month period, from fall 2003 to spring 2004 in the vicinity of Falluja h, a hotbed of opposition to US troops. Human Rights Watch officials said one of the sergeants has left the milit ary, and the other was reassigned. One complained that he hadn't been tr ained in handling prisoners. "We never should have been allowed to guard people who tried to kill us," the infantry sergeant said. Human Rights Watch said it also has spoken with a third sergeant and two Army physician's assistants who can back up the claims of brutality. But it said those individuals have not given permission to release their st ories. Fishback, whose wife is serving with the Army in Iraq, has been instructe d to remain at Fort Bragg, where he must obtain a pass for any trips off the base farther than 50 miles. When he traveled to Washington to meet with the committee two weeks ago, he had a pass. But according to Human Rights Watch, the Army learned of that session and denied him a request for another pass when he wanted to return to Washington. But Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman, said, "The Army does not tolerate deta inee abuse," and has conducted more than 400 investigations and more tha n 2,800 interviews into possible abuse since the Sept. Cadet Honor Code Central to Fishback's reasoning in pursuing the abuse matter is the "Cade t Honor Code" he studied before graduating in 2001 from West Point. It s ays, "A cadet shall not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do." In his personal chronology, he wrote, "Bottom line: I am concerned that t he Army is deliberately misleading the American people about detainee tr eatment within our custody." It is hurting America's image abroad," McC ain said on ABC's "This Week" program. The senator's staff on the Armed Service Committee is investigating the a llegations, along with the criminal felony probe at Fort Bragg by the Ar my's Criminal Investigation Command and an administrative review by the Inspector General's office. "I don't know if these allegations are true," McCain said. We've got to make it clear to the world that Americ a doesn't do it. Lindsey Graham, R-SC, another committee m ember, are proposing an amendment to the defense bill requiring the mili tary to abide by the Geneva dictates. Told that the White House is opposed to such an amendment, and the presid ent might veto the bill if the amendment is included, McCain said he was unsure whether there were enough votes in the Senate to override it. |