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| 5/20 |
| 2005/8/25-26 [Politics/Domestic/California, Politics/Domestic/President/Bush] UID:39285 Activity:kinda low |
8/25 "Iraq on brink of meltdown"
http://csua.org/u/d5q (UK Telegraph)
"The Bush administration finally did something right in brokering
this constitution"
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/25/opinion/25brooks.html
\_ The intellectual dishonesty of Brooks continues. Why should the
Sunnis accept most or all of Iraq's oil revenue being taken from
them?
\_ they are not. They are being alienated from oil resources, so
they can be crushed in civil war later... Their only ally
is Saudi Arabia... provided that Saudi Arabia has the extra
bandwidth to supply arms and money for Sunni's cause :p
\_ I really think this "constitution" thing is all for American
domestic politics than for Iraq. There is hardly any sense of
rule of law there. Having constitution which no one going to
follow is kind of pointless.
\- what do you propose? we're not talking about just deciding
whether there will be jury trials or not. but you have to
define the basic existence of the organs of government.
britain may famously have an unwritten constitition but
the do have written laws governing elections to parliament
and such. striving for something as detailed as the failed
eu constitition is obviously absurd, but you do need something
like article i/ii/iii.
\_ i think i am trying to say that don't put much hopes up.
sure, constitution is nice, but there are no concept of
things like seperation of power, independent judicial branch,
etc. it is a classic example of what we are throwing
what worked for us at someone and naively think it will work
for them.
\- i think it is well understood(*) that order is a prereq
for law, that law does not mechanistically follow from
order, or even order + a constitution. the constitution
is supposed to help get from "mere" order [under saddam
there was order, just not justice, law equity or any
values procedural or substantive] to the rule of law.
(*) = excepting anarchist or libertarian fruitcakes.
bring it on, fruitcakes. --psb
\_ You know Partha, your rants about libertarians are even
less amusing than usual given that you don't even seem
to understand the crucial distinction between libertarians
and anarchists. What you just said is comparable to
\_ That anarchists listen to better music?
me saying 'it is well understood(*) that property rights
form a basis for a civilized society.
(*) = excepting communist and liberal fruitcakes.
bring it on, fruitcakes.' -- ilyas
\- 1. i understand libertarian != anarchists.
i didnt write "libertarian/anaarchists".
2. i agree communists dont appreciate the
importance of private property. i dont
like "liberals" means much there. a lot of
the liberal hedonists in a place like SF
are very keen on private property.
3. my dispute with you would be over the word
"basis". i am merely asserting the empirical
theory [as opposed to a value claim] that
order/law preceeds property, i.e. is "more
foundational".
4. i agree libertaians and anarchsts view of the
situation is different. just addressing
libertarians ... or even Friedmanite "flat
worlders" ... this is an example of modeling
too much behavior with narrow microecon
type thinking. --psb |
| 5/20 |
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| csua.org/u/d5q -> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/08/26/wirq26.xml Contact us Iraq on brink of meltdown By Oliver Poole in Baghdad (Filed: 26/08/2005) The credibility of Iraq's political process was in danger last night as p arliament again failed to vote on a draft constitution which a Sunni pol itician said was "fit only for the bin". The government had earlier announced plans to bypass parliament in an att empt to push through the document. Supporters of Moqtada al-Sadr at a demonstration in Najaf Supporters of Moqtada al-Sadr at a demonstration But as the final hours ran out before the deadline for approving the cons titution, Hajim al-Hassani, the speaker of the parliament, appeared to o verrule the country's leaders by insisting that negotiations would conti nue today, meaning that the deadline would be missed for the third time. The impression of growing crisis in Iraq was reinforced when a new front erupted in the violent rebellion, with Shia Muslims fighting each other with guns and rocket-propelled grenades. Ibrahim al-Jaafari, the prime minister, made an emergency television appe al for peace and sent two police commando units to Najaf where the fight ing had started. Throughout the day in Baghdad, politicians bickered over how to proceed w ith the constitution without driving the country to civil war. As night fell, the government's official spokesman, Laith Kubba, announce d that a final version of the document had been decided and compromise r eached on three issues, although he did not say which. Hussein al-Falluji, a Sunni member of the drafting panel, said: "If this constitution continues to include federalism, it should be put in the bi n and done again." The chances of the parliament convening declined by the minute. Kamal Ham doun, a Sunni negotiator, said the Shia politicians - the dominant force in the national assembly - had not turned up for a meeting. "They are acting according to the law of force instead of the force of la w We call on all Iraqis to vote No in the constitutional referendum." Shia politicians made clear that they did not see any need for the parlia ment to vote. Iraq factfile The drafting began amid the optimism engendered by January's successful e lections, when Iraqis turned out to vote in defiance of bombers and gunm en. But US hopes of establishing the first secular democracy in the Arab world have foundered on ethnic and religious divisions. Gunmen opened fire yesterday on a convoy of cars used by the president bu t Jalal Talabani was not in it. In what appeared to be an attempt to inflame sectarian tensions, the bodi es of 37 Shia soldiers, killed with a single bullet to the head, were fo und in a shallow river south of Baghdad, the latest of several such grim discoveries. are i mplacably opposed to the federal nature of the constitution. They fear t hat it will place oil wealth in the hands of the Kurds in the north and the Shia in the south. The constitutional vacuum drew in another opponent of federalism, the fir ebrand Shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, who was responsible for two uprising s in the south last summer but who has since been quiet. At least 12 people were killed as his Mahdi Army militia clashed with mem bers of the Iranian-linked Badr Brigade in six cities and a Baghdad subu rb. Sadr has now formed common cause with the Sunnis, fearing that feder alism will play into the hands of Iran. The Badr Brigade is the armed wing of the Supreme Council for Islamic Rev olution in Iraq, which dominated the elections. It wants the southern st ates to become a semi-autonomous region with partial control over its re venues and security. The speed of the violence underlined that even a "defeated" militia such as Sadr's still has a formidable arsenal and that the security forces ar e nowhere to be seen when the fighting starts. Armed clashes broke out in British-controlled Basra before dawn but later subsided. In Amarah, where British troops are also stationed, Sadr supp orters were reported to have killed five people when they mortared Badr Brigade headquarters. |
| www.nytimes.com/2005/08/25/opinion/25brooks.html By DAVID BROOKS (NYT) Op-Ed 822 words Late Edition - Final , Section A , Page 23 , Column 6 ABSTRACT - David Brooks Op-Ed column says Peter W Galbraith, former American ambassador who has been critical of Pres Bush's Iraq policies, is more complimentary about what administration has achieved in proposed Iraqi constitution; he says constitution reflects reality of nation it is meant to serve, creating loose federation that will be good deal for Kurds, Shiites and even ordinary Sunnis; he says country is divided, and drawing up constitution that would artificially bind three divergent societies together would create only friction, violence nd civil war Please Note: Archive articles do not include photos, charts or graphics. |