8/26    What are the pros and cons of Arnold's plan to increase the time
        it takes for public school teachers to gain a tenure?
        \_ One of the problems (and always a sure sign that something else
           is going on) is the wording here.  The "tenure" that they're
           talking about isn't tenure.  For the first two years of a new
           teacher's career, it's basically at-will employment.  After those
           two years, they can be fired but must be given a review process
           to defend their position.  In a job where 40% of people leave in
           the first 5 years because we DON'T PAY ENOUGH TO KEEP THEM, and
           where there are extreme shortages pretty much across the board,
           this measure is a petty slap in the face so the gropenator can
           say he's doing something about the schools.
           \_ So you agree with the idea of ending any sort of tenure and
              pension system for teachers and treating them like any other
              degreed professionals? Meaning: at-will for their entire career,
              their retirement is whatever they can get from social security,
              and personal savings in their 401k, but pay them higher wages
              along the way?
              \_ Yeah, I'd love to see it.  But the "higher" wages would need
                 to be on par with, say, tech workers.  A 10 year veteran
                 should be pulling down 6 figures.  I doubt we'll come anywhere
                 near this sort of a system in the next 50 years, though. Until
                 then, because the wages are so low, I'm all for teachers
                 having strong unions yielding good job protection.
                 \_ Are you effing kidding? 6 figures?! Lots of university
                    professors aren't pulling that down!!!
        \_ Doesn't matter.  They shouldn't get tenure anyway.
           \_ Right, take away the one thing that actually attracts people
              to teaching jobs!  That'll learn 'em!
              \_ Your solution to bad schools is to guarantee life employment
                 for anyone hired in after a short period of time?  How about
                 paying them more and making it easy to get fired, just like
                 the rest of us.  Professors get tenure so they can say/write
                 wacky things that might actually be true and not get fired
                 for it.  People who aren't willing to take a 10th grade
                 proficiency exam should not be teaching.  They sure as heck
                 shouldn't get locked in for life.  Worse than tenure is the
                 teacher's unions but that's another story.  Why should
                 teachers get tenure and no one else?  I don't have tenure.
                 You don't if you're not a teacher.  There are lots of crummy
                 jobs that need doing that don't provide tenure (all of them).
                 They don't provide pensions either.
                 \_ Your argument sounds suspiciously like "I didn't mine, so
                    why should anyone else get theirs?" The solution to your
                    problem, brother, is to unionize your profession, not
                    complain because others have unionized theirs. And before
                    you get into the evils of unions, remember that if you're
                    in on the ground floor, you can avoid the mistakes of
                    others.
                 \_ Your example fails on the first step. No one is offering
                    teachers bundles of money. In addition, at-will employment
                    would be disasterous. Changes in administration could
                    result in mass job dissatisfation. Say CA does a Kansas and
                    implements an Intelligent Design requirement or something
                    more subtle such as using a certain teaching method which
                    some disagree with. Most teachers I know are working more
                    than 8 hours a day on a job that requires more than a
                    little emotional attachment to their students and their
                    futures. If you make teaching just another job to them
                    where they have to worry about the bottom line instead of
                    a life choice, you're going to lose a lot of good teachers
                    to other jobs where they aren't going to be hassled.
              \_ Since when did public school teachers officially get tenure?
                 \_ It has occurred to me that part of why pols can use public
                    schools and public teachers as punching bags is because
                    people know very little about public schools and public
                    teachers. To answer your question: Since before you were
                    born, at least, in most districts. I'm told that polling
                    shows the odd result that people generally feel their own
                    kids' school is in good shape and should simply receive
                    more funding while feeling public schools, at large, are
                    in awful shape and require massive reform. -- ulysses
                    \_ That result is interesting to me because I've lived
                       in 3 seperate CA school systems, Bakersfield, Santa
                       Maria, and Chico. Chico was ok, Bakersfield wasn't
                       good, and Santa Maria was mind-bogglingly awful.
                       -jrleek
        \_ The biggest problem is not the tenure portion of the initiative but
           rather the part where ANY teacher (even those "tenured") can be
           dismissed for having a unsatisfactory review. This means all
           teachers fall into an at-will employment situation. A neat trick
           to avoid paying pension and retirement benefits. Another is to
           drop the at-will teacher after four years to prevent having pay
           more for the five-year vet vs the new kid. This will be especially
           useful for those school systmes who are experiencing budgetary
           problems. A nice quick fix.