8/23    Photos from the Iraq war.  Warning: Very graphic.
        http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/08/23/iraq_gallery/index.html
        \_ This puts some things in perspective.  "Oh no, the British police
           accidentally and incorrectly killed one innocent person!"  Now
           \_ Your moral equivalance/equivocation is disgusting.  That's not
              perspective.  You can call both "wrong".
              \_ They _are_ both wrong!  But which has gotten more press?
                 \_ It's not a zero sum game.  They both should get plenty
                    of press.  That the war hasn't is a decision of the gov't
                    and complicity by our media outlets
           let's look at the bit in the slideshow where the US Helicopter fired
           a missle into a group of 13 civilians.  "Oops, our bad."  I mean,
           it's really they're fault for _forcing_ us to invade.  Stupid
           it's really their fault for _forcing_ us to invade.  Stupid
           camel jockeys.
           \_ They did have the audacity to have lots of oil.
           \_ Actually it was a group of > 50-100 people.  Many were partying
              by the disabled Bradley.  Is it within the rules of engagement
              to lob a missile into the middle of the crowd?  I don't know.
              -moderate/liberal
              \_ Not really, but unfortunately the US doesn't have a weapon
                 that swoops down to beat people with sticks.  -John
                 \_ just admit it, we are not accountable for anything we
                    do.  It is OK to kill Iraqi at randomn.  Something
                    that we don't talk about, but it's a fact.  Do you know
                    how many people got ran over by US convoy due to
                    aggressive driving?  do you have any idea how many
                    people died as he/she bring his blanket to the roof
                    to sleep because electricity is not restored?  Is
                    there any consequences for killing civilian?
                    Without punishment, people bound to do bad things, pure
                    and simple...  And at the mean time, Americans don't
                    understand why Iraqi hates Americans.
                    \_ Are you stupid?  Yeah, that's exactly what I was
                       implying.  Kill all those non-American civilians!  Woo!
                       It's OK!  Moron.  -John
                       \_ Am I saying that all US
                          GIs are shooing at Iraqis for fun?  of course
                          not.  All I am saying is that there are bad apples;
                          there are those who are trigger happy, justified
                          or not.  The problem is that there are no
                          consequences for any wrongful actions unless it's
                          caught by US media.  Even so, US militaries are not
                          subject to any external scruny other than its
                          own military justice system.
                          Then, there is the issue of mercenaries or
                          "private contractors."  Their actions are not even
                          subject to US law and US military.
                          \_ Bad apples, huh?  There are reports that in
                             faloojeh, we got intel that the "bad guys" were
                             using taxicabs.  The order came down that cabs
                             were greenlighted as targets.  I won't be
                             surprised when we hear about free-fire zones.
                             These things happen because of orders.  There
                             may be some bad apples, but the real bad shit
                             comes from orders that the troops are told are
                             legal.
                          \_ All intentional abuse of military power should be
                             avoided and punished when it occurs.  It's wrong.
                             Nobody's saying that it isn't.  I also find it
                             odd that a lot of people say "hey, all these
                             abuses go unreported, just look at this link!"
                             My point was that people who dance around a
                             burning apc or who generally celebrate that kind
                             of violence (even if they're in the US military)
                             deserve a fucking beating.  -John
                             \_ Put yourself in their shoes for a sec.  That
                                same APC has been blowing up _their houses_
                                looking for terrorists.  You'd bemoan its
                                destruction?
                                \_ Has it?  And no I wouldn't, I'd probably
                                   stay inside wishing it would end.  -John
                                   \_ But if your house blows up while you
                                      are in it ... maybe safer to dance
                                      on blown up Bradleys!
                    \_ Wow, the clever, seductive transition from 'we' in
                       the beginning to 'Americans' in the end almost had me
                       going for a second there.  Well, aside from the
                       atrocious engrish, anyhow.  Whatever personal guilt,
                       political/social obligations & responsibilities I may
                       feel, I'm certainly not going to debate them with a
                       clown like you.  What's the point when your whole
                       statement makes it clear that you're not going to
                       listen to intelligent discourse?
                 \_ Why the hell not?  For all the billions we've flushed down
                    the toilet for space weapons that literally contributed
                    *nothing* to national defense we could have not only
                    beat stick drones, but imperial walkers by now.
                 \_ No, but we do have a ray gun that microwaves people.
                    \_ sweet idea, had they used that instead, it would be
                       helicopter flies up, blasts crowd with burning-pain
                       beam until they disperse, then drop bomb on disabled
                       bradley to destroy it.