8/22 SUV owners: Are you still happy with your oil guzzlling SUVs, or
is the gasoline price getting painful?
\_ I don't drive an SUV but I did just put $52+ in my tank. Does it
hurt? Only in the "gee, that was the most expensive tank of gas
I've ever bought in my entire life... oh well" kind of way. The
price has *zero* effect on my driving. Why? I still need to drive
to work, to the store, to visit family, etc. I'm really happy for
the anti-car folks who live in a tiny village making pottery out
of their backyard to sell to their pottery buying neighbors down
the street who live next to their parents, but the rest of us have
lives to live. When someone donates a $1M+ home I'll be able to
live closer to work but that will put me further from my family.
\_ Your little rant was cute and all, tough guy, but why don't
you tell us one reason why you need a SUV? What does it do
that a minivan or a regular old sedan can't do?
\_ Some people need to haul their entire living room up K2.
\_ Great. You just keep on thinking that the California car
driving lifestyle is the only way to have a decent life,
and stay the fuck out of the decent places so the rest of
us can live in peace.
\_ Yep, you've convinced me with your deep and pithy style
that my lifestyle is just wrong. Please provide a list of
"decent places" so I know how to avoid hyper aggressive
ninnies like you. Thanks.
\_ It's not just California, it's the entire country. The
modern American way of life is built on cheap gas. We need
to start thinking seriously about how we're going to live in
a world where gas is not cheap, instead of just getting into
unproductive left/right pissing matches. The "sky is
falling" crowd and the "I don't care, something will fix it
all for us" crowd are both blinkered.
\_ How about telecommuting, even as little as once a week?
\_ *laugh* Yeah, uhm, sure. Talk to my boss. Thanks. As if I
_choose_ to not telecommute.
\_ My SUV's mileage is 20mpg, which is not that much worse than our
other car's 26mpg. On the other hand I find it far more
versatile. However, I also don't drive it that much. Why focus
on car style and MPG when you should be focusing on overall GAS
usage i.e. in gallons/day?
\_ Exactly. I own an SUV, but I only drive it a short distance
to transfer to public transit to commute to work, even though
it's faster to drive straight to work all the way.
in order to transfer to public transit to commute to work,
even though it's faster to drive all the way to work. So my
gas-guzzling SUV guzzles much less gas than some people's
sedans.
\_ Your other car is 30% more fuel efficient. "Not that much
worse"? What would be "that" much, 15mpg? 10mpg? Not that
I'm advocating either way. My car ~= 25mpg. I also live
close to work though.
Also note that even for the same MPG, emissions levels can
still vary quite a bit between cars.
\_ I live and work in San Francisco. Not selling pottery either.
I usually ride my bicycle to work, but take Muni/BART on
days when I don't feel like riding. I use CityShare about
twice a month when I need to shop. I don't own a car. It
isn't really that hard to do. -ausman
\_ City CarShare is pretty rad, but I'm not sure how it would
work in lower density areas.
\_ You never drive anywhere for recreation?
\_ I rent or borrow a car to do that. Honestly, this is
the only real change I have noticed: I rarely leave
The City and when I do it is usually to get on an
airplane. Oh, I go to Berkeley alot for Cal games,
but I use BART for that.
\- I live in SF. I drive to the gym 4 blocks away.
\_ You don't really live in SF, do you? South of
Cesar Chavez and West of Divis don't count. Where
in "SF" do you live?
\_ Who told you they don't count? Not an SF native,
that is for sure. Most of the native San
Franciscans grew up South of Cesar Chavez
or West of Divis.
\_ Don't want to get too bulked up on your way there!
\_ How do you get your kids around? How do you shop for a
family of 4 + pets? How do you move anything bigger than
a backpack to/from your apartment? How happy is your wife
living in an apartment with a few kids + pets? How can you
afford to pay a mortgage in the city so close to work?
\_ There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than
are dreamt of in your philosophy. -tom
are dreamt of in your philosophy, Horatio. -tom
\_ So you suggest ausman not have kids, pets, a spouse,
large objects, a wife, or buy a house? That's really
deep. Maybe he can live near a lake and write poetry
and contemplate his Oneness with the universe while
RIDE BIKE! through the forest?
\_ Regardless of what Tom or anyone thinks, you need a
car for a lot of things. However, you do _not_ need
a fucking SUV for wives/childrens/dogs/cellos or
whatever. You need a truck for hauling sacks of
turf and wheelbarrows and lumber, which is what those
things were originally for, not picking up lattes
for the office. I smile every time I see some
idiot in a monster like that with a $90 gas tank
(or whatever it translates to.) All the farmers and
handyman types here drive cars like Subaru estates
or small minivans. -John
\_ Sure you do. Because modern American wives/
children/dogs/cellos are three times bigger
than they were when you were growing up or
in other countries.
\_ I "need" a car about twice a month. It is silly
to pay $400-500 a month for something I use twice.
\_ $400-500/mo? Why would you get such an
expensive car? If you get a decent cheap small
car, maybe a couple years old, it could last
a very long time especially considering low
usage.
\_ RIDE BIKE! is for people who do things like
not live in LA or not play cello. -- ilyas
\_ My brother plays drums and lives without a car.
But we don't need any more proof that you're
incapable of thinking creatively. -tom
\_ i bet the bum lives in your parents
garage and will keep bumming rides
to move his shit around when he is
asked to leave.
\_ Yeah, I am sure exposure to temperature
extremes won't be bad for the cello. Or God
forbid you go professional, and have to tow
a 50,000 dollar box of wood as fragile as an
eggshell, and sensitive to everything. I mean
that can only end well. -- ilyas
\_ I'm not suggesting ausman do anything; it sounds
like he's already done a pretty good job making
life decisions. I think it's pretty sad that some
people can't imagine living any way other than
what they're accustomed to. I know plenty of
people living car-free, and it is entirely possible
to have a rich, fulfilling life, including kids and
pets, without owning a car. In fact I would go
further to say that the car-free people I know
tend to have lives richer and more fulfilling than
the average. -tom
\_ Pets are luxury items.
\_ So are kids, grocery, etc.
\_ If only the 3rd world knew they were living in
such luxury!
\_ So are pets.
\_ Here in US, you need $$$ to raise a kid. A kid costs
$1M in your lifetime.
\_ That's only an ideal. Look at all the poor
people having kids. Your tax dollars at
work.
\_ Or, rather, lack of tax dollars for decent
sex ed/condom programs.
\_ I don't think so. I think a lot of them
choose to have kids regardless.
\_ Pure BS. I guess that it's possible
that some people spend that much on
kids, but my parents raised 5 kids on
$40,000 a year, in CA. All that with
no particular government help to speak
of. (Usual stuff I suppose, we went to
CA public colleges, so tution was fairly
cheap, etc.)
\_ Yeah, me too, but my mom telling me the
Alpo from the discount warehouse was
really "extra chunky corn flakes" got a
bit old. :-) -John
\_ I don't have any kids yet, maybe I will have to buy a
car when I get one, but I hope not. I see lots of Noe
Valley parents loading their kids onto the J every
morning in their strollers, so I know it can be done.
It might not be possible with two working parents. I
already told you how I shop. City CarShare has trucks
and SUVs for larger loads. Since I live in a walkable
city, there is a butcher and produce store less than
two blocks away for day to day things. I live in half a
2500 sq ft duplex we bought three years ago. 1250 sq ft is
plenty of space for three people, but if my family gets too
big I might have to move. I am not going to post details
of my financial situation on the motd but if you are
really curious, you are welcome to write me and ask.
Our total cost of mortgage minus rents from the bottom
unit is less than our rents apart were. -ausman
\_ Thank you for a serious and thoughtful reply, unlike
some others here.
\_ As I've said over and over again, the problem is not that gas
gas costs $4, $5, $6, etc. per gallon for personal driving. The
problem is that it inflates the price of everything. I can handle
even $20/gallon gasoline. However, if you raise my food, water,
electric, etc., bills by 6x that's a totally different story.
\_ Gas is $6/gallon in Europe and somehow people there survive.
I guess you could argue their standard of living is lower,
but they don't think so. Our standard of living is going
to go down, too.
\_ Being a tall/long-legged person; I am pretty much
stuck with driving an SUV due to headroom issues. It sucks
paying >$50 a week in gas; but I have got no other
alternative w/o adding another hour a day to the commute.
I hear that they are coming out with hybrid SUVs..
\_ European commuters pay $6/gallon (or $9/gallon in Holland),
but many other industrial consumers do not due to tax rebates.
They can always lower their taxes, we have nothing to lower.
Like I said, driving is a luxury, eating is not. Europe also
has had decades to design all their cities and infrastructure
around expensive gas. Almost everything in America is setup
to require cheap energy to function.
\_ Right. It's a good thing the folks who laid out London after
the fire of 1666 took high gas prices into account in
their planning.
\_ Oh, they had a oil based economy before 1666? I
learn something new every day on the motd. Cheap
energy is a modern, temporary phenomenon.
\_ A friend of mine was 6'5" and borrowed my Honda Civic and said he
had no problem with headroom ... He drives a Subaru Forrester now.
\_ Speaking as a 6'4" person, a Honda Civic is perfectly fine -
I drove one in comfort for 4 years. The Mini Cooper was also
pretty comfortable. The only car that I've seen that I doubt
I could drive under most circumstances was the Lotus Elise,
but that's a $40,000 toy. --lye
\- I think people who can afford [as opposed to those who buy
but cannot afford] +$40k cars are not significantly affected
but cannot afford] +$40k cars are really not at all affected
by the gasoline price increase. To arbitrarily pick a number,
if you make $100k/yr, does gas being $2 vs $2.50 a gal affect
if you make $100k/yr, does gast being $2 vs $2.50 a gal affect
you at all? This delta is less than their latte/imported beer/
fancy vodka budget/premium. Aside from auto gasoline, higher
fancy vodka budget/premium. Aside from auto gasoline, increase
oil prices affect the cost of living in otherways, but I
still dont think this affects the even moderately well off.
Now obviously there could be other effect [like say if you
work for an airlines] but the main effect is not from incr
cost of living/out of pocket costs. ok tnx.
fancy vodka budget/premium.
\_ Of course it will hit the poor more, like any price
increases in staples. However, there are lot of places
it can affect the rich, too. Even if you don't, say,
own a trucking company you might own a yacht. Are
those people going to be on food stamps? No, but like
anyone else they are on a budget. If they take the
boat out less often (say) then the marina loses money,
the yacht club loses money (no mai tais), the tackle
shop loses money and so on. A lot of wealthy people
are wealthy because they pay attention to the bottom
line, not because they ignore rising expenses.
\- my point is not "it hits the poor more", it is
"the marginal increase in living costs going to
higher auto gas costs is trivial for medium income
people among bay area high tech people" i.e. the sloda
demographic. the increase price of gas increased the
per capita cost of a gas for a camping trip by $5/person
[500mi of driving].
\_ Might not be trivial if, say, you own a boat,
which was my example. It directly depends on
how much gasoline you use (or need for your
business) and indirectly depends on how much
gasoline others use (and need for their
businesses). Price at the pump to fill up the
SUV isn't really the issue. |
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