8/17    I went to Seattle for the first time in my life, and I have to say
        it really blows. The city traffic sucks as badly as SF, and the
        freeways are almost as congested as Los Angeles. The freeway signs
        are really fucked up and curves too much to be newbie friendly.
        The mass transit doesn't take you anywhere. The $1.75 ticket for a 1
        mile stretch on the famous Seattle Monorail is utterly pointless.
        What's up with the Space Needle? It is expensive, the queue is over
        1 hour, and it's really stuffy & crowded. When you leave the city,
        1/2 of the roads have huge pot-holes and many don't even have
        signs, or have old signs that you can barely read. It's near
        impossible to drive and read the map at the same time, since
        the roads curve a lot and the signs suck. It's funny my flawless
        GPS failed ***three times*** to take me to the right places
        in downtown Seattle; it gets confused. One of the bridges
        closed down so I had to fucking drive 5 hours around the bay
        from Port Angeles to the city. And the weather? It is fucking
        90 degrees. Food is mediocre. Bay Area is so much better.
        Sleepless in Seattle? That's right. Fucking lame city.
        \_ Everyone I know who loves Seattle, happens to be hiking and
           camping fanatics. They can never stop talking about how close
           they are to great camp-sites and all that crap. I am somewhat
           disabled so I don't really give a shit about hiking, or
           Seattle for that matter. Bay Area is still beats Seattle
           in terms of food, traffic, weather, and career opportunity.
        \_ You are correct. You should stay away from Seattle. That much is
           absolutely clear. In fact, you should consider not even visiting.
            -- ulysses
        \_ Good riddance.
        \_ Good riddance.  There's nothing native seattles like more than to
           see Californians go home.
        \_ the proximity to mt. ranier, olympia nat'l park, etc. are nice
           but otherwise it is just another crowded city.
        \_ Still want to visit Seattle. Where is a good yet cheap place to
           stay? Ideally within walking distance of shops, cafe's, etc.
           \_ I did exactly that, I tried to get something cheap and close
              to the Market. The only thing I got was a $120 hotel with
              a $12 parking fee/day, the garage was a HUGE 45 degree hill
                                                           \- have you ever
                                                              been on a 45deg
                                                              "hill"? it was
                                                              probably not more
                                                              than 12deg.
                                                              \_ For reference,
                                                                 the steepest
                                                                 streets in SF
                                                                 are about 32%
                                                               [18 degrees]_/
                                                                 (Lombard is
                                                                 closer to 40,
                                                              [22 degrees]_/
                                                                 but uses the
                                                                 switchbacks)
                                                                 And according
                                                                 to wikipedia,
                                                                 the steepest
                                                                 hill in SEA
                                                                 is 21%, E. Roy
                                                       [12 degrees]_/
                                                                 Street.
              from the hotel, and the Market was 10 blocks aways. It turned
              out to be 10 HUGE blocks, with 30 degree hills all the way.
              The place is called The Virginia Mason Inn. According to
              Google Map and my GPS it's right by the ocean. It's not.
              It's pretty hard to find anything under $150, within 10 blocks,
              and is good. In fact Virginia Mason smells like a hospital. I
              think they converted it to an Inn a few years ago. Anyways,
              I booked 3 days with them, and I totally regret it. The city
              is small and you'll pretty much see everything in one day.
              There's no need to torture yourself by living closer to it.
              \_ We ended up booking the Crowne Seattle in downtown. $129
                 per night. But something like 15% hotel tax will be added.
        \_ Hey, no state income tax.  I visited in 1998, and there were trees
           everywhere and home prices were lower than that in the BA back then.
           \_ No state income tax = no money for mass transit or basic
              infrastructures.
              \_ I don't have any facts, but maybe Microsoft generates enough
                 tax income like Vegas is with the Casinos?
        \_ I visited in July.  Don't forget the stench of coffee everywhere.
           You can't swing a cat by its tail without hitting two Starbucks.
        \_ I have been many times to Seattle. It's okay. The weather sucks.
           The 90 degree days aren't bad, but the cold, wet, and dark (short
           days) winters are unbearable. It's kind of a manufacturing town
           and I don't find it beautiful. It is odd to see so many
           redheaded people, though. There are worse places to be, but I
           don't like it too much, especially now that it is expensive to
           boot. You could buy a big, brand new house there for $150K 12
           years ago and it seemed almost worth it then. Same house is
           $500K+ now and not worth it at all. I'm a California snob,
           though. Whether it's San Diego, Santa Barbara, LA, SF, or
           wherever I find I like CA better than anywhere else.
           \_ Yeah, I'd love to stay in SF, but the housing is too $$$.
              We need a one bread-winner mortgage and a decent quality of
              life.
              \_ follow-up: what neighborhoods near Seattle have decent
                 housing prices, and walking neighborhoods (shops, cafes,
                 etc)? I would like to avoid suburban sprawl, Wal-Marts,
                 and so forth, and prefer independent establishments.
                 Basically your good old-fashioned main street.