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| 5/25 |
| 2005/7/29-31 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Israel] UID:38879 Activity:high |
7/29 It's the Jews! It's always the Jews!
http://www.nysun.com/article/17686
\_ Where is the motd jew-lover NOW?
\_ Jewish people should rule the world.
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\/ GOOD EVIL
\_ An argument truly worthy of the motd.
\_ These guys are no more brainwashed or misinformed than your
average Fox News viewer. But yes, it is terrible that so many
are deliberately lied to by the media. This is one of the
reasons it is so important to come to an equitable resolution
to the Palestinian-Isreali conflict, so that the Arab governments
can't use it as a stick to whip up their peoples fury and
redirect it to Isreal and the United States. Though they
probably will try anyway...
are deliberately misinformed by the media.
\_ Ignoring the blatant troll bait at the beginning, you're out
of your mind if you think the Arab governments would settle
for any "equitable resolution." You completely fail to
understand the situation if you think they are going for
anything less than kill all the jews. Anything other than
genocide would be considered unfair by these guys.
\_ Sorry, you are simply wrong. Why did Egypt sign a peace
treaty with Isreal if that was the case? Seems like you
are as brainwashed as your average Fox News viewer. There
treaty with Isreal if that was the case? Seems like there
are perhaps one or two countries, like Iran, who still
feel that way, but they are in the minority.
\_ Seriously, do you read *any* history? How about the
*B*illions of dollars Egypt gets from the US every year
as long as they maintain the treaty? That money allows
Egypt to maintain a large and effective military for
the region, keeps the dictators swiss bank accounts full
and their home/family villages safe. Too bad the treaty
didn't include the Egyptian government newspapers, TV and
schools from teaching their people that all their problems
are Israel's fault when they're clearly not.
\_ When did Iran become Arabic?
\_ Point taken.
\_ Nuclear weapons, converting even the most persistent
wars into hasty peace treaties since 1945.
\_ It is not really a troll. Just because someone points out
an inconvenient fact, that does not make what they say
a troll. The point is that governments all over the world,
here included, have means of keeping the uneducated hoards
in check. The tools are a bit blunter in totalitarian
regimes, but if anything, they are even more effective
in the democracies.
\_ I think your attempt to equate personal freedom,
prosperity, and free press with blaming everything on
the Jews and shooting any who disagree brilliantly
demonstrates the bankruptcy of your argument. Thanks.
\_ I think your unwillingness to admit to the
propaganda in your midst demonstrates your
narrow simplistic "us vs. them" worldview and
is strong evidence of your own brainwashing.
Your fear that someone somewhere might be wanting
to "blame the jews" and "kill all the jews" shows
a definite paranoiac streak as well. Each side
uses simplistic sloaganeering, and phrases like
"freedom", "motherhood" and "patriotism" to try
and whip up hatred toward the "other side" and
make them more easily controlled. It is too bad
you can't see through it.
\_ Uhm, hello? Read *anything* from the Palestinian
side in the last, oh say, 40 years? They don't
pretend that the only fully satisfactory solution
is "kill all the jews". It isn't paranoia when
someone is out to get you.
\_ Yes, the only solution is to kill all of the
savage Arabs. Only then will the Israeli have
his lebensraum.
\_ Hi Mr. Strawman! How's it going back in
Rhetoric 10 class?
\_ http://csua.org/u/cvi (Isreal government)
"The PLO [...]
"2. Established the independent state of
Palestine and accepted the existence of Israel
as a state in the region;
"3. Declared its rejection and condemnation of
terrorism in all its forms, including state
terrorism;
Note the date, 1998.
\_ That's nice and all but that doesn't jive
\_ jibe
with the reality since 1998 and the PLO
sure as hell doesn't control or represent
all the other groups such as Hamas who have
never said anything but "kill all the jews".
They could've written a statement that said
the moon is made of cheese but that wouldn't
make the moon into cheese.
\_ I don't think critical thinking and independent thought
will ever be a "bankrupt ideology" but you are welcome
to believe that. And yes, the relative lack of a free
press in Egypt is dastardly. And yes, if forced to chose
sides, I would line up with what you un-ironically call
the side of "personal freedom, prosperity and [the]
free press." But you know what? I don't have to chose
sides. I can stand at the sidelines and mock both of
you for acting like Jr. High school children instead
of real adults. Grow up and learn to settle your
differences without resorting to demonizing the
other side and with minimal violence.
\_ The real irony here is that you claim mocking both
sides is somehow more mature that pointing out what
some bad people are doing and saying "That's bad."
This coupled, once again, with the "Kill all the
Arabs" strawman. I think all can see who is acting
like a Jr. High school student here.
\_ I am not the author of the "kill all the Arabs"
strawman. But to be honest, it is not much more
of a strawman, than the "kill all Jews" one. Do
I really need to dig out the quote where a US
Congressman advocates nuking Mecca? The point is
that you are both idiots and I am pointing out
both of your idiocy. And yes, mocking people is
pretty much always more mature than killing them.
\_ Well, I have no real way to respond to this
series of strawmen and red herrings. How
could I make you look sillier than you already
do? I guess I'll throw out that to my reading
the congressman did not advocate nuking Mecca,
series of strawmen and red herrings. Try
actually reading what people write, rather
than what you wish they had written. I guess
I'll throw out that to my reading the
congressman did not advocate nuking Mecca,
he hypothesised that the threat of nuking
Mecca might be a way of detering Islamic
terrorists for a nuclear attack on the US. I
don't know that it is, myself. I guess you
could dig it out and re-read it yourself, but
it's pretty obvious that reading comprehesion
is not your strong suit. |
| 5/25 |
|
| www.nysun.com/article/17686 Be Careful What You Wish For, Larry SHARM EL-SHEIK, Egypt - The poor people dressed in Islamic garb or in dir ty blue trousers and T-shirts sitting in 118-degree heat in the hall of the Sharm el-Sheik Hospital were either the brothers, the cousins, or th e friends of the people wounded in the terrorist attack of the day befor e Just plenty of desperate young people. The family and children of the workers are in t he villages near Cairo, and their beloved men come to visit for one week once a month. Sharm is inhabited by a couple of thousand military peopl e and public officials that President Mubarak, just like President Sadat , keeps as a defense vanguard near his own villa; or by poor workers, wa iters, drivers, plumbers, and cooks - lots of day laborers that serve th e enormous tourism business. Only a large group of very poor workers, th e other face of the holiday town of Sharm el-Sheik, have been the killed and the wounded here. You understand many things about terrorism when you speak to them; and yo u understand also, unfortunately, why we will never be able to count on what we call "the moderate Muslims" for the war against terrorism. What you learn about terrorism from the poor of Sharm, if you still didn' t know it, is that its cruelty has no limits, no excuses, and no histori cal explanation, but only a cold ideological background. The terrorists know that the men they kill, wound, and destroy economical ly have nothing to do with imperialism, occupation, Palestine, Iraq, col onialism, and all the other explanations that the mayor of London, Ken L ivingstone, finds to explain their crimes. These guys are the typical "moderate Muslim" that the holy rage of the ji hadists destroys with fury, the one infected by the contact with the Wes t and also the one that in our Western dreams and in many European and A merican experts' analyses should suddenly rise against the extreme Islam , their enemy. So, let's test this thesis and ask: "Do they hate terrorists?" The answer is "Yes, very much so," and they really do, - they close their fists an d watch in rage and repeat to me that they deeply hope that Mr Mubarak will catch them all, will put them in prison, will kill them. Yes, at every level, with their hands, if requested, and with demonstrations that actually, while I'm in Sharm, suddenly app ear in the hot streets and just in front of the cameras of the internati onal press: "Down with terrorism," "We are against terrorism"... But then, if it's so, why can the great moderate Muslim world not really fight their own enemy? Certainly the terrorist attacks are not their wo rk, no! And if they say the y do it in the name of Islam, they are not Islamic; or, most likely, thi s shows, like the television says, that someone uses the name of Islam j ust to hide the real perpetrators." Anyhow, Islam is out of the question, And then, we ask again, who is behi nd the attacks? Well, you know the answer, they smile with a smart expre ssion. Mahmoud, who comes from a periphery of Cairo, where he now cannot go back because he doesn't have the money for a bus ticket, knows the a nswer, and so do all his other friends, about 10, all from the same town , now all together as one, standing in the corridor of the Hospital of S harm, no air-conditioning, their friend Khaled in bed with a wound in hi s back ("I was lucky. They know the answer, yes: the television said that only the Israelis and the Americans have a real interest in seeing Egypt on its knees; Genera l Fuad Allam said that the perpetrators of the Taba attack of October 20 04 were apparently linked to the Israeli security forces, and so, suppos edly, it is today. Also Al-Jazeera and even Al-Arabia interviewed "exper ts" to confirm this point of view. A big, beautiful guy with a red T-shi rt just puts it down bluntly: "We know only what the television tells us ." It's suddenly clear to me that here television is a metaphor for "knowled ge" and for "power": printed paper, school texts, Friday sermons in the mosques, everything is "television" for this guy and his hundreds of mil lions of "moderate Muslim" friends. And everything points to the Israeli as an object of hate. Their poor condition - almost of slaves, of peopl e almost without civil rights and work protections - makes the growth of their knowledge of how this are going a danger for the fascistic power there rules them. So, we cannot count on "moderate" Arabs, not even on the group of youngst ers that I meet later, the girls dressed just like ours: They repeat to me, still with a smart little face, "It cannot be a Muslim, it's certain ly the Israelis and the Americans." The dream palace of the Arab, after the terrorist attack in Sharm, just like the thousands of attacks in Ira q and in Israel, is still there; the summer camps of Hamas still teach t hat it's good to kill the Jews; several madrassas work full time as cent ers of recruitment; the television broadcasts an "analysis" that charges the Mossad and the CIA with mass murders. The dictators of the Arab cou ntries, in this case Mr Mubarak, don't let Khaled know who the guys tha t cut their legs are. So, Khaled can be as "moderate" as we want, but so long as that fascist culture of hate is there, we can count only on our selves. |
| csua.org/u/cvi -> www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Foreign%20Relations/Israels%20Foreign%20Relations%20since%201947/1984-1988/408%20PLO%20Statement-%207%20December%201988 While the General Assembly was meeting in Geneva, the key developments we re taking place in Stockholm. There, Yasser Arafat met with five America n Jewish leaders, members of an organization called International Center for Peace in the Middle East. The meeting, with the full knowledge and support of both the American and Swedish governments, was aimed at findi ng a formula that would enable the United States to start a dialogue wit h the PLO and for that body to meet the traditional US conditions for such a dialogue. Two days of talks produced the following statement whic h was read out by Sweden's Foreign Minister Sten Andersson. The statemen t, approved by Arafat, called for a two-state solution of Israel and Pal estine, negotiations under the auspices of an international conference b ased on resolutions 242 and 338, set determination for Palestinians and rejection of terrorism. Text: "The Palestinian National Council met in Algiers from November 12 to 15, 1988, and announced the declaration of independence which proclaimed the state of Palestine and issued a political statement. "The following explanation was given by the representatives of the PLO of certain important points in the Palestinian declaration of independence and the political statement adopted by the PNC in Algiers. "Affirming the principle incorporated in those UN resolutions which call for a two-state solution of Israel and Palestine, the PNC: "1. Agreed to enter into peace negotiations at an international conferenc e under the auspices of the UN with the participation of the permanent m embers of the Security Council and the PLO as the sole legitimate repres entative of the Palestinian people, on equal footing with the other part ies to the conflict; such an international conference is to be held on t he basis of UN resolutions 242 and 338 and the right of the Palestinian people of self-determination, without the external interference, as prov ided in the UN Charter, including the right to an independent state, whi ch conference should resolve the Palestinian problem in all its aspects; Established the independent state of Palestine and accepted the exist ence of Israel as a state in the region; Declared its rejection and condemnation of terrorism in all its forms , including state terrorism; Called for a solution to the Palestinian refugee problem in accordanc e with international law and practices and relevant UN resolutions (incl uding right of return or compensation)." |