7/26 To the free market troll complaining about how the government shouldn't
fund an R&D project into better roads. Have you any idea how many
commercial(read: free market) companies owe their technology to basic
science funded by the government? Hell. If not for that, you wouldn't
even have a career.
\_ I am probably the guy you think is the free market troll. You
didn't read my posts carefully enough. I totally support government
funding of R&D of all kinds, government funding of roads, and
government funding of public mass transit. I just loathe car
culture, and think that our present system is not based on either
a free market or government support of rational transit, but rather
is based on whoring out the country for the car companies and
suburban developers. You may address me as "anti-car troll" if
you want to be accurate.
\_ "whoring out the country for the car companies..."? Did you
just graduate from highschool? That's the sort of
demagoguery I'd expect from a freshman or sophomore with all the
accompanying idealisitic 'Im gonna change the *world*!!!!'
demagoguery I'd expect from a freshman or sophomore will all the
accompanying idealisitic 'Im-a gonna change the *world*!!!!'
zeal.
\_ I'm not lafe but I just want to say that when I was in
college I was full of optimism and energy because I
felt that I could do a lot to make this world better.
Now that I'm in my 30s, working 9-5... I feel that
there isn't much I can really do to drastically
change the world. You just live life the way life
wants you to live. Does anyone feel similar?
\_ Not at all; I'm not a victim. -pp
\_ No. Try to be a good guy, debate eloquently, stand by
your convictions. What's so hard about that? Make what
little difference you can, and enjoy watching the morons
around you send the world to hell in a handbasket. And
regarding the comment below, Europe has good public
transit, but the cities are also generally a lot more
densely populated. -John
\_ I do try to live my life modestly and reasonably, but
I've concluded that the world doesn't want to be made
better. See GC's comments on "Paradox of Our Time"
http://www.georgecarlin.com/home/dontblame.html
\_ So, your alternative to car culture...?
\_ See Europe. Walkable/bikable cities, subsidized mass
transit. High gas taxes to discourage use of the
automobile. Discourage sprawl.
\_ Europe's big cities are very densely populated. The
rest of Europe uses cars just like here.
\_ Even smaller European cities have very usable
public transportation (better than, say, SF/Oak).
And even less densly populated regions are well
served by public transport. I was able to get
from the door of my apartment to standing on a
glacier (in another country no less!) solely
though public transport (well, and some walking).
\_ So you suggest a *massive* rebuilding of our
entire culture where we literally rip up everything
now in place, and rebuild everyone's home, work,
the transit system, utilities, everything, so you
don't have to live in car culture? Seriously, I've
never said this to anyone before but if you're that
upset you should just move to another country that
suits you better. Living here will just keep you
bitter and angry. Note, I don't say 'make'. You
are already bitter and angry to a ridiculous degree
over something that will *never* be anything like
the way you want.
\_ Ok, take a couple of deep breaths and re-read
my post. You will see that I do not suggest
anything; I just offered a counter statement
and supporting anecdote to the post before
me. Physician, heal thyself. -- pp
\_ Ok, so you advocate nothing when the original
point of this sub-thread was "What is your
alternative to car culture?". To say that
you advocate nothing when you're really
advocating European style transit which would
require a massive and near complete
rebuilding of society is pure intellectual
dishonesty. To then turn around and say the
fault is mine and that you're this calm and
together person while I'm some nut case is
pure dishonesty. Care to actually discuss
the issue instead of nutting around?
\_ I predict that within 10 years gasoline
will be $10/gallon and the rebulding of
America into a denser and more sustainable
fashion will begin happening all on its
own. And yes, you are the one that sounds
angry and bitter and extreme here. !-pp
\_ It isn't possible to be angry/bitter
about something I don't care about.
Questioning someone who questions the
status quo is hardly extreme. Now
you're just being silly. Re-read and
try again. I predict that whatever
happens, if you predict enough random
things you'll eventually be right
about some of them.
\_ Are you familiar with the Peak Oil
hypothesis? I am not predicting a
"random" thing, I am subscribing
to a theory that already has quite
a bit of evidence to back it up.
\_ I've read a lot on both sides of
the peak oil hypothesis. I'm
still undecided. Thinking about
it now, no, I don't think oil
will ever get to $10/gallon in
today's currency because there
are other energy sources that
cost less than that, but more
than the current price. Oil
can exceed those numbers due to
current inertial reliance, but
not to infinity and I don't
believe to $10/g. I still
remember all the scare movies
in the 70s telling us how by
the mid 80s the world would be
completely out of oil. I'm not
easily convinced that state of
affairs is always ~10 years away.
\_ A while ago I saw a seaman's
handbook written in the 70's
that quite sincerely stated
that sail might well be comming
back in the near future so
merchant seamen should learn
sailing related skills.
\_ So I did some research and
I agree that because of coal
to gasoline processes, gas
will probably not hit $10
anytime soon. I think $5 is
very likely though.
\_ I wouldn't say that smaller cities have better
public transport than SF does. There is, for
instance, no subway. You might be able to get
on a bus, but you can do that here, too, if
you don't mind a 3 hour trip to go 20 miles.
My point was that Europe, outside of the dense
cities, is also a car culture. Try driving
from Paris to the Mediterranean during the
summer. The roads are packed. Mostly the old and
the poor use public transport, just like here,
unless they live in a big city (like our NYC).
Plenty of Europeans own cars and use them to,
say, go to Wal-Mart.
\_ Yeah, traffic here is horrible, as bad as
LA -- I don't deny that (though the highways
are also much narrower). But at the same time,
of the 12 people I work with closely, every
single one takes public transportation to work.
of the 12 people I work with closely, not a
single one drives to work.
I live in a town that isn't that much larger
than Des Moines and it has functioning public
transportation. You are right, there is no
subway here, but there are trams. However,
to go 20 mi, I wouldn't use either -- I'd
take a train and, if well timed, it should take
about 40 minutes door-to-door with public
transportation (less if I biked to the train
station, which I probably would). It is un-
realistic to expect the US to become this way
overnight, and there are some inherent
differences between Europe and the US that
may make it hard to implement such a system,
but the difference isn't just an "economy-
of-scale" effect from large cities -- many
smaller European cities have well functioning
public transportation.
\_ When I was on vacation, I took trains everywhere.
The train from Nice to Paris took about seven
hours. I could have done it in a bullet train
in about four, but I wanted to do it overnight
and get a sleeper. The people I shared my
cabin with certainly were not poor.
\_ Trains will get you to a city, but are
not helpful to get you to a particular
destination. I can fly from LA to SF
for cheap, so I guess flying is better
than public transportation. Why would
someone take a train to Nice if they
could fly?
\_ Easy -- it takes an hour to get from
your house to the airport, where you
need to arrive an hour in advance.
The flight takes an hour, and it
takes another hour to get from the
airport to the city center. So, even
though the flight is only 1 hr, you
are in transit for 4 hours. When
factoring in the time it takes to get
to the train station, it probably
takes a little bit longer, but the
experience is much more pleasant.
\_ The solution is obviously to build
more airports so that it won't
take 2 hours there/back.
\_ Or more train stations with
bullet trains.
\_ You can take a cab or local transit
or even rent a car once you get there.
Flying is a sort of mass transit, actually.
How is it fundamentally different than
Greyhound??
\_ Same as in Hong Kong and around the Tokyo area. Many
people have nice cars, but they don't drive them
everyday.
\_ In Tokyo, you don't have to. In NYC, you don't
have to. It's unreasonable to expect the same
level of public transit in, say, Des Moines.
\_ I've never been to Tokyo, but the idea that you can
get around NYC with just public transit is simply
wrong. Even if you want to think that Manhattan =
NYC, this still isn't so and the incredible number
of cabs and other private driving services should
make this clear. If public transit was so great
and workable in NYC, there wouldn't be so many
cabbies. A cab is *waaaay* more expensive than
public transit, btw.
\_ There are tons of cabbies in Tokyo, and
Seoul as well. Seoul has great public
transit, but that doesn't mean you don't
sometimes need a car, and therefore a cab.
There are even some cases where a cab is
cheaper than public transit. Quite a few
in fact. -jrleek
\_ Absolutely. I don't think many people are
arguing for getting rid of all cars. Taking
public transit for an IKEA shopping trip
is probably impractical, and there are
plenty of remote regions that don't need
to be served by public transit. The aim
of car alternatives should not be to
replace cars in all situations, just
common ones (people don't go on IKEA
shopping sprees every day, people do
go to work every day).
\_ in other countries ikea provides
very good delivery service for
big items. for small items, just
call a cab. still don't need car.
\_ I have been to NYC dozens of times and have
never taken a cab. The transit system does
everything I have ever wanted it to do in
NYC. Have you ever even been there before?
\_ yes, i was born and raised there. how many
times did you visit our fine city?
\_ dozens. I don't know the exact number.
\_ Someone needs to ilyas this post.
\_ To verbify is the American way... urr, I mean it's to
Americanize.
\_ I think that guy didn't have a problem with government funding R&D
projects in general. He only had a problem with funding R&D
projects into better roads.
an way... urr, I mean it's to
Americanize.
\_ I think that guy didn't have a problem with government funding R&D
projects in general. He only had a problem with funding R&D
projects into better roads. |
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