Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 38752
Berkeley CSUA MOTD
2021/12/06 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

2005/7/21-23 [Computer/Theory] UID:38752 Activity:moderate
7/21    Translated version of Aristotle's Physics:
        \_ This is what the kids should be learnen' in school!
           \_ I know you are making a joke, but in many ways Aristotle's
              ideas re Physics formed the basis for Newtonian Physics
              (iirc Aristotle came up w/ the idea of inertia, &c.) so
              teaching children where modern science came from would be
              a good thing.
              \- i think teaching science is more important than where
                 science came from. i thought the st. john's program where
                 you read principia and such was sort of weird. the ancient
                 notations are not reasonable.
                 \_ I agree that teaching science is the most important
                    thing, but many students learn things better if they
                    can follow the historical development of an idea.
                    I also think that the LACK of historical knowledge
                    is one of the biggest problems in this country.
                 \_ One of the huge problems with presenting modern mathematics
                    is a culturally ingrained insistence, among mathematicians,
                    to present the completed edifice of knowledge.  Personally,
                    I find math a lot easier to understand if one follows the
                    history of the field rather than the conceptual map of the
                    modern state of the field.  -- ilyas
                    modern state of the field.  Calculus, for instance, makes
                    a lot more sense when put in context of the physics people
                    were trying to solve by developing infinitesimals.
                    Similarly, group theory was developed to find polynomial
                    roots originally, etc.  -- ilyas
                    \_ I think the claim that that will help the average grade
                       school student is ridiculous.  The point of a math class
                       at that level is to teach a *skill*, not a set of facts.
                       I think a good math class at the gradeschool level should
                       be closer to a sports class than a history class.  Should
                       baseball players be forced to learn cricket before
                       they play real baseball?  Besides, neither the math nor
                       the physics taught in school is a "conceptual map of the
                       modern state of the field".  Math stops at Newton and
                       physics never goes past the 1930's.  I'm writing this
                       rant because I think fucking with the math curriculum
                       is very dangerous.  I know people who were in school in
                       the "New Math" era, and most of them didn't learn
                       *anything*.  And now there are a bunch of idiots trying
                       to get physics turned into some math-free freshman fluff
                       class so that highschool students can follow the
                       "logical" progression from physics to chemistry to
                       biology.  If you haven't heard of it, look up the
                       "physics first" movement.  Idiots.
                       \_ Look, I'm not saying that we replace phyiscs/math
                          w/ history lectures. Rather what I'm saying is that
                          when you teach a particular theory, just give 5
                          mins about where it came from. Some kids will just
                          get it better that way and the ones that really
                          care (yes, some of us NERDS actually did outside
                          unassigned reading for FUN) will go out and read
                          more aobut it.
                          more about it.
                          \_  Fine.  I have no problem with history of science
                              as supplementary material, and yes, I spent quite
                              a bit of time reading that sort of thing when
                              I was in school as well.  I was addressing the
                              issues of re-aranging the order in which subjects
                              are taught, and of teaching obsolete or otherwise
                              irrelevent technical material.  Also, the
                              mainstream curriculum should not be primarily
                              aimed at math nerds.  It should be set up so
                              a typical student can get competancy.
                              \_ You are barking up the wrong tree.  I am not
                                 a proponent of 'touchy-feely' education in
                                 the hard sciences.  I think to understand what
                                 I am saying, you should show up for an upper
                                 division or graduate math class sometime.
                                 For the record, I think kids should learn what
                                 a proof is (and start doing proofs) at the
                                 age of 10.  It boggles the mind that countries
                                 let citizens vote while not explaining to them
                                 what a coherent logical argument is. -- ilyas
                                 \_ Your patronizing idiocy is impressive, yet
                                    typical.  I was a math major, have done
                                    math research, and tought myself calculus
                                    in 7th grade, so you  can shove the
                                    attitude straight up your ass.  What is
                                    good for a math major is *not* the same
                                    as what is good for insuring basic
                                    competence in math for the typical grade
                                    school student.
                                    \_ Do you even know what you are ranting
                                       about anymore?  Did I insult your
                                       mathematical EPEEN, lafe? -- ilyas
                                 \_ I am confused. I was a math major and
                                    mathematicians (and physicists, chemists,
                                    psychologists, economists, and others)
                                    are fascinated with the history and
                                    usually make it part of their courses.
                                    Is your argument about grade school level
                                    classes, because college classes seem to
                                    already do what you are suggesting. --dim
                                    \_ If you mean a historical presentation
                                       of material, only 1 math teacher I had
                                       ever did this (my graduate logic
                                       instructor at UCLA).  Most berkeley
                                       math professors sucked as teachers, and
                                       presented the material poorly. -- ilyas
                                       presented the material poorly.  Btw, the
                                       UCLA guy's name is Itay Neeman.  He is
                                       awesome.  I recommend taking anything
                                       by him if you are ever at UCLA. -- ilyas
                                       \_ Perhaps your last statement is
                                          true, but it is irrelevant. A
                                          lot of classes in different
                                          subjects I had at Cal talked about
                                          Archimedes, Newton, Riemann, Euler,
                                          Descartes, Bohr, and so on.
                                          Since science is built on the
                                          foundations laid by others it is
                                          hard to present the material w/o
                                          mentioning these guys and their
                                          contributions. Perhaps I
                                          misunderstand what you mean
                                          exactly. --dim
                                    \_ My experience was very different.
                                       The only two teachers before Cal
                                       who talked about the history of
                                       science/math were my Jr HS Bio
                                       teacher and my Chem AP teacher.
                                       And they only briefly mentioned
                                       it. In Cal, only my 7c teacher
                                       talked about history and that
                                       was only bits about the A-Bomb.
                                       I had to take Math 160 (History
                                       of Math) to get any exposure
                                       to math/science history.
                                       My argument is that a historical
                                       perspective should be included
                                       at all levels. It shouldn't be
                                       at the expense of the material
                                       but rather as a way of supporting
                                       the material and perhaps making
                                       it a bit eaiser for students to
2021/12/06 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular

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Cache (285 bytes) ->
Aristotle Translated by R P Hardie and R K Gaye eBooks@Adelaide 2004 Table of Contents Book I Book II Book III Book IV Book V Book VI Book VII Book VIII Rendered into HTML on Thu Jan 27 17:18:31 2000, by Steve Thomas for Th e University of Adelaide Library Electronic Texts Collection.