Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 38683
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2025/05/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
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2005/7/18 [Politics/Domestic/Election] UID:38683 Activity:high
7/18    I deleted the whiner's thread.  I'd like to know the facts on this.  I
        can't see from the facts why people are upset at Rove, and I'm trying
        to figure this all out.
        \_ Your first sentence removes anyone from the obligation of listening
           to anything that you have to say.
        \_ Rove helped orchestrate the whispering campaign against McCain and
           was instrumental in making a triple-amputee war veteran look soft
           on defense. He's a dirty politics player, and he's truly lowered
           the tone of the game. This is simply the biggest thing anyone's
           come close to catching him on.
           \_ A couple of non sequiturs there.  I voted for McCain in the 2000
              primary and am now glad he lost, so if Rove helped him avoid the
              nomination, I'd like to shake his hand.  As for Cleland, being a
              triple-amputee doesn't make you immune against accusations of
              being soft on defense (because he was IMO).
              \_ Why are you glad McCain lost the 2000 primary?
                 \_ Ilyas got it in one.  McCain has shown himself to be
                    someone just looking for attention and quite handily gutted
                    the 1st amendment (with help from SCOTUS of course).
                    \_ If money is speech, would you allow paying people to
                       vote for your guy?
                       \_ Is an ad on TV speech?
                          \_ This is the issue in a nutshell. I can understand
                             why people would be inclined to consider an ad
                             speech. However, given the power of mass-
                             marketing these days and the advent of a
                             professional marketing class, I cannot in good
                             accept that a paid advertisement constitutes
                             speech any more than propaganda does. These highly
                             refined messages need regulation to help sort out
                             truth from blatant lies or we end up with Hearst-
                             esque yellow journalism and mass hysteria.
                             \_ How do you distinguish 'paid advertisement' from
                                any other kind? -- ilyas
                                \_ Because I have an unhealthy distrust of
                                   money and oligarchs.
                                   \_ Uh, I don't think you understood my
                                      question. -- ilyas
                                      \_ Sorry, read "why" for "how." Answer:
                                         not sure. Well-worth investigating
                                         further.
                                         \_ I think what I am trying to get at
                                            is not only all advertisement
                                            'paid,' but there is no clear line
                                            between advertisement and
                                            political speech in general.  I
                                            would much rather put up with
                                            unhealthy influence of money in
                                            politics than establish a pattern
                                            of government regulation of
                                            political speech.  A separate
                                            question worth thinking about is
                                            whether it is even possible to
                                            eliminate the influence of money
                                            from politics.  -- ilyas
                    \_ Your money does not get to vote. If you are allowed to
                       throw money around to purchase access to mass media to
                       broadcast catchy propaganda, the purpose of the 1st
                       Amendment becomes lost in the signal-to-noise ratio.
                       \_ To both of you:  is a web page speech?  Do you know
                          how McCain-Feingold affects a webpage?
              \_ I voted for McCain and REALLY wish he had won. Part of the
                 reason I liked McCain is b/c he doesn't go in for the kind
                 of stuff that the Bush camp implicitly supports (ex. Swift
                 Boat Vets) and he supported campaign finance reform (just
                 b/c you have more money doesn't mean your pov should be
                 preferred over other povs - think of this as reverse free
                 speech, you shouldn't be able to drown me out b/c you can
                 afford a bigger loudspeaker). Additionally, McCain wouldn't
                 have messed up the world as much as the Bush administration.
           \_ Yeah, I don't really understand what being an amputee has to do
              with having political clue in and of itself.  Re: McCain he
              probably doesn't like McCain's take on free speech. -- ilyas
        \_ Check out the wikipedia Rove article. Has some lesser known dirt.
           http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rove
        \_ Your first sentence removes anyone from the obligation of listening
           to anything that you have to say.  Why should we listen to a censor?
           [restored]
        \_ Rove outed an undercover CIA agent to a reporter, or at the
           very least, confirmed this information so he could publish her
           name and ruin her career and risk everyone overseas who ever
           worked with her. Enough for you?
           \_ Sigh.  The email to Cooper was to discredit her husband, not her.
2025/05/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/25    

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Cache (8192 bytes)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rove
New Yorker profile, Rove, the second of five chil dren, found out at nineteen (during his parents' divorce negotiations) t hat the man who raised him was not his biological father. Rove's mother would later commit suicide (in Reno, Nevada, in 1981). Alan Dixon and stole some lette rhead, which he used to print fake campaign rally fliers promising "free beer, free food, girls and a good time for nothing," and distributed th em at rock concerts and homeless shelters. Admitting to the incident muc h later, Rove said, "I was nineteen and I got involved in a political pr ank." Robert Mosbacher had allotted Rove only one-quarter of the campaign's $1 million direct mail contract, after Rove had the entire contract in 1988. As Novak wrote, "A lso attending the session was political consultant Karl Rove, who had be en shoved aside by Mosbacher". The US Senate voted unanimously on SJ 23 - (98 yeas, 2 republicans not voting) to authorize the use o f military force in retaliation for the September 11th terrorist attacks . Rove's comment has caused Democrats to demand an apology or r esignation, while the White House and other Republicans stand behind him . Families of September 11, a nonprofit organization founded in October 2001 by families of those who died in the September 11 terrorist attacks , issued a statement requesting Rove "resist his temptations and stop tr ying to reap political gain in the tragic misfortune of others." Of his trip to Niger Wilson wrote, "I spent the next eight da ys drinking sweet mint tea and meeting with dozens of people: current go vernment officials, former government officials, people associated with the country's uranium business. Novak went on to identify Plame as Wilson's wife: "Wilson never worke d for the CIA, but his wife, Valerie Plame, is an Agency operative on we apons of mass destruction. Two senior administration officials told me W ilson's wife suggested sending him to Niger to investigate the Italian r eport. The CIA says its counter-proliferation officials selected Wilson and asked his wife to contact him." Although Wilson wrote that he was certain his findings were circulated within the CIA and conveyed (at least orally) to the office of the Vice President, Novak questioned the accuracy of Wilson's report and added that "it is doubtful Tenet eve r saw it." Several high ranking CIA officials disputed this claim, however, and indicated that the person who made th e claim was not present at the meeting where Wilson was chosen. Time, Wilson, who served as an ambassador to Gabon an d as a senior American diplomat in Baghdad under the current president's father, angrily said that his wife had nothing to do with his trip to A frica. Time magazine, published Plame's name citing unnamed government officials as sources. ", Cooper raised the possibility that the White House ha d "declared war" on Wilson for speaking out against the Bush Administrat ion. Chris Matthews have been mentioned in the press as having early knowledg e of the Plame leak, although their conversations with (unnamed) White H ouse officials may have taken place after Novak's article was published. edit Anger from the CIA, Independent Counsel investigation Though Plame's exposure was claimed to be retaliation for Wilson's outspo kenness, the White House denied any involvement. Intelligence Identities Protect ion Act of 1982, though the language of the statute raises the issue of whether Rove is within the class of persons to whom the statute applies. Time magazine said it would surrender to Fitzgerald e-mail records and notes taken by Cooper. Miller and Cooper faced potential jail terms for failure to cooperate w ith the independent counsel's investigations. Columnist Robert Novak, who later admitted that the CIA attempted to dissuade him from re vealing Plame's name in print, "appears to have made some kind of arrang ement with the special prosecutor" (according to Newsweek). In the July 17 Time magazine article detailing his Grand Jur y testimony, Cooper writes that Rove never used Plame's name, nor indica ted that she had covert status. Cooper writes "Was it through my convers ation with Rove that I learned for the first time that Wilson's wife wor ked at the CIA and may have been responsible for sending him? This second statement has since been called into question by an e-mail, written three days before Novak's column, in which Cooper indic ated that Rove had told him Wilson's wife worked at the CIA. If Rove wer e aware that this was classified information at the time then both discl aimers by his lawyer would be untrue. Cooper said "I went to b ed ready to accept the sanctions for not testifying," but told the judge that not long before his early afternoon appearance at court he had rec eived "in somewhat dramatic fashion" an indication from his source freei ng him from his commitment to keep his source's identity secret. For som e observers this called into question the allegations against Rove, who had signed a waiver months before permitting reporters to testify about their conversations with him (see above paragraph). Cooper, however, stated in court that he did not previously accept a gene ral waiver to journalists signed by his source (whom he did not identify by name), because he had made a personal pledge of confidentiality to h is source. The 'dramatic change' which allowed Cooper to testify was lat er revealed to be a phone conversation between lawyers for Cooper and hi s source confirming that the waiver signed two years earlier included co nversations with Cooper. In it Rove, prio r to the investigation, alerts the president's No. Rove states in the email, "I didn't take the bait," referring to hi s denial that Bush had been hurt by the allegations. If true, this would indicate tha t Rove identified Wilson's wife as a CIA employee prior to Novak's colum n being published. Some believe that statements by Rove claiming he did not reveal her name would still be strictly accurate if he mentioned her only as 'Wilson's wife', although this distinction would likely have no bearing on the alleged illegality of the disclosure. The White House re peatedly denied the Rove had any involvement in the leaks. Whether Rove' s statement to Cooper that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA in fact viola ted any laws has not been resolved. Niger," and in an apparent effort to discourage Cooper from taking the former ambas sador's assertions seriously, gave Cooper a "big warning" not to "get to o far out on Wilson." Cooper recommended that his bureau chief assign a reporter to contact the CIA for further confirmation, and indicated that the tip should not be sourced to Rove or even to the White House. Rove' s reported claim that Wilson's mission to Niger was "authorized" by his wife was not strictly true, as Valerie Wilson did not have the authority to authorize such a trip. However, CIA sources still differ on the exte nt of Valerie Wilson's involvement in her husband's selection. A Resolution of Inquiry has been offered by Rush Holt (D-NJ) and John Con yers (D-MI), requesting that the Bush Administration release all documen ts concerning the outing of Ms Plame. Barney Frank (D-MA) and John Conyers (D-MI) have authorized the Library o f Congress to research legal precedent for the impeachment of White Hous e staffers. edit White House reaction From the beginning, the White House has called the allegation that Rove d eliberately disclosed classified information "totally ridiculous" and "s imply not true." f anybody has got any information in side our government or outside our government who leaked, you ought to t ake it to the Justice Department so we can find the leaker." Speaking to a crowd of journalists the following day, Bush said " I have no idea whether we'll find out who the leaker is -- partially bec ause, in all due respect to your profession, you do a very good job of p rotecting the leakers." Although De mocratic critics called for Rove's dismissal, or at the very least immed iate suspension of Rove's security clearances and access to meetings in which classified material was under discussion, Rove remained working in the White House...