7/7     If only the CIA didn't fuck it up by telling Dubya that Saddam had WMDs
        ... then we might actually have caught Osama, had Afghanistan as a
        beacon of post-9/11 success and a template for international
        cooperation, and had reserve forces at home ready for real threats.
        Instead ... U.S. soldiers are in Iraq saying "We don't fucking have
        enough troops" and Dubya's people are saying "We won't send any more
        fucking troops because it will make things worse", enabling terrorists
        to get trained and exported from Iraq.  SNAFU.  Doh.
        \_ I think gwbush made up his mind about invading Iraq long
           before any intelligence from the CIA got to him, I think it's
           dumb to blame the CIA
           \_ Indeed, Bush was talking about invading Iraq as far back as
              1999.
           \_ Well, that's certainly an opinion held by many Americans, just
              like the opinion that Dubya relied on intelligence that was dead
              wrong.  I could see the latter group calling your opinion dumb,
              which doesn't get us anywhere. -op
              \_ Take a look throught these essays, letters, and editorials:
                 http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqmiddleeast2000-1997.htm
                 Several of them are signed by both Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld, and
                 they wanted to invade Iraq since 1998 or before.  For better
                 or for worse, they planned this war long before 9/11.
        \_ The CIA didn't fuck up, they did exactly what they were ordered to
           do -- they told Dubya what he wanted to hear ; what he wanted them
           to tell him.
        \_ Yes the world would be safer with Saddam in power. Al-queda would
           leave the West alone. And we all sing kum-by-a around the fire
           place at night.
           \_ Yawn. Your sarcasm is misplaced.
           \_ We are definitely not singing kum-by-a now after removal of
              Saddam.
              \_ Whether Saddam supported terrorism or not, it's no great
                 stretch to imagine terrorists taking refuge in Iraq with
                 Saddam's blessing.
                 \_ I can imagine you storing 5 golf balls up your ass,
                    does that make it true?
                 \_ !AQ. There were ideological differences between the two
                    that could not be reconciled.
                 \_ Yes, but now we don't have to imagine it.
                 \_ I can imagine all kinds of things, but I think we should
                    deal with real threats, not imaginary ones.
                 \_ Saddam had the perfect reason to not allow terrorists
                    within his borders. They would have been the perfect
                    reason to invade/continue to deny sactions/stop the
                    oil-for-food sales.
        \_ Do you actually think capturing OBL would be good? It would only
           turn him into a martyr and rally support around him. The best
           thing we could possibly do is keep him contained and let him
           fade into obscurity IMO.
           \_ That's because you're an idiot.
              \_ No.
           \_ No, the best thing we could do is to convert to Islam. That
              way he will be less inclined to attack us. We should also
              hide Korans in all major terrorist targets. That way, when
              they are blown up the burning Korans will fly out everywhere
              and land in gutters &c. Then we can denounce bin Laden,
              exploder of Korans.
              \_ Doesn't work.  Muslim terrorists blow up mosques full of
                 Korans all the time.  It's only bad if an infidel
                 accidently holds on with one hand.  That's way worse.