6/20    If there are any X-COM: UFO defense fans in the audience, check out
        laser squad: nemesis.  Very fun squad-level turn-based strategy game,
        in the spirit of X-COM, Combat Mission, Jagged Alliance, etc. -- ilyas
        \_ I would love a game where you can lead a platoon and order them to
           do things (split, outflank, regroup) AND participate in the war
           in 3D. For example, in Battlefield 2 you're a soldier and you have
           no way of ordering men, and in Rise of Nations you're the commander
           and have no way of participating it in the first person. They should
           have something that combines both.
           \_ Savage does exactly this. One person plays commander and gets
              an RTS view, everyone else plays it like an FPS. Tribes also
              did this.
              \_ Half-Life Natural Selection also does it.  No vehicles
                 though.
           \_ Brother in Arms?
           \_ Have you played Homeworld?  It's not person-based, and you
              can't really take a 1st-person view, but I think being able
              to order squadrons around in formations is really neat.  -John
              \_ Mothership.
        \_ I looked at it a few years ago and it was much more frustrating
           than any of the games you mentioned.  It wasn't nearly as clean,
           mostly because everything happened at the same time and being able
           to tell how long it would take to do an action was really hard.
           \_ It uses combat mission's 'VCR tape' metaphor for combat,
              which I personally like, but I can see why people would hate it.
              It IS harder to get good results in this metaphor, but it's more
              realistic than units taking turns, imo.  -- ilyas
              \_ I don't care about realism.  I care about fun.  But I could
                 live with it if it gave you a way to actually tell what the
                 fuck you expect to happen during a turn.  As it is I don't
                 know how many pixels I expect someone to run, or how long
                 a gun takes to shoot so I can wait until after I think
                 a few shots have gone off to have someone dash for the door.
                 \_ Gamespy just gave Battlefield 2 five out of five stars!
                    Yes I know it's multiplayer FPS and not turn-based stgy.
                        \_ You better have a kick-ass machine, the minimum
                           system requirements are ridiculous, my machine
                           cannot play it!
                 \_ There is this old jungle saying about how 'no plan
                    survives contact with the enemy.'  Having to plant for
                    survives contact with the enemy.'  Having to plan for
                    possible contingencies based on limited information about
                    enemy position, movement, and intent, and having to deal
                    with the fact that you soldiers are perfect drones obeying
                    your every order exactly is something I find kind of neat.
                    YMMV, as I said.  -- ilyas
                    with the fact that your soldiers are not perfect drones
                    obeying your every order exactly is something I find kind
                    of neat.  YMMV, as I said.  -- ilyas
                    \_ It's not the planning I mind it's the fact that "I want
                       this person to start running this way as soon as X is
                       dead" is not possible.  So instead I have to guess and
                       hope I'm right.  Especially considering I have to guess
                       even how long it will take to shoot n times which I
                       think should be enough time to kill X.  There needs to
                       be a better way to give the dudes orders because as it
                       is right now it is just frustrating.  And I'm fine with
                       them not obeying orders all the time, morale issues are
                       kind of fun in a game, but dealing with poor ui is not
                       morale, it's fighting with the game engine to get it to
                       do what you want.
                       \_ Yeah, that's true.  Having a 'programming language',
                          or, more accurately, a contingency planning language
                          (a big AI area) would be nice.  A nice bonus here is
                          that it would be possible to write good AI for these
                          games then, or at the very least bring modern
                          techniques to bear. -- ilyas
        \_ I've heard nice things about Full Spectrum Warrior.  I've
           wanted to try it.  Any motd opinions?