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| 5/28 |
| 2005/6/15-16 [Health/Dental, Health/Eyes] UID:38138 Activity:high |
6/15 So the Schiavo autopsy shows her brain was hopelessly deteriorated
and damaged beyond all hope of any recovery. What you want to bet
this isn't going to change anyone's mind?
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/15/national/15cnd-schiavo.html?ex=1276488000&en=f3948639dfbb578b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
\_ The below "debate" just goes to show that my last sentence was
entirely correct. --op
\_ What say we all stop feeding dgies' fanaticism right now, and save
us all the pain?
\_ I wrote one post, smartypants (excluding this). -dgies
\_ Oops. Indeed. My bad. It's sooper-anonymous troll
(emarkp? reiffin? jblack?)
\_ Still your bad. Why are you naming people when you *know*
it can't possibly be all 3 and likely isn't any of them?
How about you just get over it or go talk to kchang about
his tracker. You could have easily checked login times to
shorten that list, too. Sheesh, so lazy. So presumptive.
\_ The question wasn't whether her brain was undamaged. It was how she
could respond given the condition of her brain.
\_ midichlorians.
\_ But a lot of the BS right wingers were claiming, such as the
"alleged MD" Dr. Bill Frist and her being able to follow a
balloon is clearly false since according to the autopsy she was
blind, which I assume is because her vision center was not there
anymore.
\_ Seriously. I think frist is a disgrace to harvard medical
school for his completely dumbass and uninformed opinions
in this schiavo situation. I think every neurologist in
the country was disgusted and offended by his comments.
\_ Heh. You should hear what surgeons (Frist is one) say
about neurologists. Actually, you should hear what most
doctors say in private about neurologists.
\_ What do they say? My neighbor is a neurologist,
so I hear what neurologists say about "most
doctors".
\_ Neurology is for people who really aren't
interested in being a doctor, in the sense that
neurologists rarely save lives or make real impact.
Neurologists tend to have cush residencies and
careers. When is the last time one has to be
called in to handle a neurological emergency?
Despite its cushness, neurology tends to be one of
the easiest residency programs to get into, mostly
because of low pay and lack of respect from doctors
in other specialties, and end up attracting the
least talented and/or ambitious med school grads.
That's just what my brother (UCD surgery prof.),
his wife (anesthesiologist), and their colleagues
say (when I asked the question at one Xmas party).
\_ Um, I think it has more to do with the fact that
they have to interact with crazy people. I mean
really batshit violent fucking CRAZY people.
\_ Uh, ok, if you say so, 'cuz the people I
polled didn't. Of course, I only polled,
oh, 10-ish doctors at the party, and you're
not a doctor at all.
\_ heh, there were neurologists there saying
how disrespected neurologists are?
\_ Thinking back (this was a couple of
years ago), I think there were 1
radiologist and 1 cardiologist at the
party. The rest were surgeons and
anesthesiologists.
Frankly your doctor friends sound pretty
arrogant and laughable. "make real impact"
indeed. --not a doctor
\_ Arrogant? I thought I already said they're
mostly surgeons or people who have had 1 or
more years of surgical training as part of
their residency.
\_ sounds like they think only surgeons are
really worthwhile. i dunno, the whole
thing about being worried about prestige
and all that seems distasteful to me.
\_ I think prestige from some ignorant
public is silly. I think respect and
acknowledgement from your peers reflect
underlying reality about the nature of
your job.
\_ Look, everyone knows surgeons
are assholes. My neighbor is
very bright (Stanford) and overall
it seems many neurologists are. He
works with paraplegics and such,
getting called to the hospital
constantly. I don't know how
well neurologists are respected, but
- like I said - surgeons are
assholes and your friends don't
seem to be exceptions. FWIW, some of
the best and smartest doctors I know
who do all kinds of cool things
(outside of medicine) like build
telescopes are pediatricians.
Surgeons are valuable and make a lot
of money, but it gives many of them
egos they don't deserve.
\_ Odd you mention pediatricians.
My brother's ex- is a pediatrics
prof at Stanford, and she's a
generally nice person. She also
confirmed the unflattering
characterization of neurologists.
Her agreement was what led me to
ask the question at the Xmas
party.
\_ For surgeons to pass this judgement
on non-surgeons doesn't fit this
criteria in my opinion.
\_ And how relevant is it for non-
doctors to pass judgement...
\_ I'm not confident enough in any doctor that I'd believe such
an assertion. We really can't know for sure because she was
killed without investigation.
\_ So you put more faith in Frist's (who didn't even examine
her) opinion than in 1) her own doctors and 2) the ME...
Fuck off.
\_ Fuck off yourself. I don't put any stock in Frist's
comments. I've seen the video of her tracking things
with her eyes.
\_ So did Frist. That was a few moments from hours of
tape. What's Hecuba to him...
\_ You know they filmed her for something like 20 hours
and then edited it down to the one or two times
where her random movements made it appear that
she was looking at something, right?
\_ if she can track once every 20 hours,
she has more clue than you twink
|_ even a stopped clock tells the right time
twice a day.
\_ok , a broken clock has more clue than
you twinky boy
\_ Perhaps you should look up 'random',
'coincidence' and 'probabilistic'....
\_ I know that critics *claimed* this. It's obvious
the tape is edited. However I don't know of any
facts that show it was "20 hours" or something
like that.
\_ You haven't even done the least bit of
research into it then. Try Google.
Here's a clue, take two and call me
in the morning:
http://news.tbo.com/news/MGBQ67CTI6E.html
\_ Autopsy showed no evidence of bulemia. Which was Michael's stated
reason for her collapse.
\_ big deal.
\_ Why did she collapse then?
\_ She had a heart attack for some unknown reason 15 years ago.
Her parents remained on very good terms with her husband, and
only after he tries to pull the plug there are allegations that
he had been abusing her. Someone without medical training
guessed the cause of the heart attack wrong. And your point is?
\_ Her blood had no trace of enzymes released during a heart
attack. What is your proof that she had a heart attack?
\_ um, enzymes don't hang around for 15 years.
\_ They took her blood when she was admitted to the
hospital. It showed depressed potassium (leading
people to speculate about bulemia but the autopsy
report today says it was consistent with fluids
she received by IV before the blood was drawn).
There were no cardiac enzymes found in heart
attack victims.
\_ Did they exist 15 years ago?
\_ I meant that a heart attack 15 years
ago might have released some enzymes
at that time, but there's no way they'd
still linger around till now (15 years
later)
\_ God, this is sounding more and more like
the old .9999... == 1 free-for-alls.. |
| www.nytimes.com/2005/06/15/national/15cnd-schiavo.html?ex=1276488000&en=f3948639dfbb578b&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss TIMOTHY WILLIAMS Published: June 15, 2005 An autopsy on Terri Schiavo, the severely brain damaged woman whose death sparked an intense debate over a person's right-to-die, showed that her brain was severely "atrophied," weighed less than half of what it shoul d have, and that no treatment could have reversed the damage. That point had become a key issue in the debate over whether to prolong Ms Schiavo's life and whether she had a chance to recover no rmal brain function. Thogmartin said that recovery was not possible because of the massive brain damage that occurred after Ms Schiavo collapsed in 1990. Her bra in weighed 615 grams at the time of her death on March 31. "No amount of therap y or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons." Thogmartin said Ms Schiavo technically died of "marked dehydration " - not starvation - after her feeding tube was removed. But he said the underlying mystery at the heart of her case - why she sud denly collapsed 15 years ago -- could not be answered. He said he consid ered the manner of her death to be "undetermined." Instead, the medical examiner discussed some factors that did not appear to lead to Ms Schiavo's illness. Ms Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mar y Schindler, had accused their daughter's husband, Michael Schiavo, of a busing her, which he has steadfastly denied. Thogmartin also said th ere was no evidence she had had an eating disorder before she collapsed, although a disorder was widely suspected because she had diminished lev els of potassium in her blood. And despite a widely televised video that appeared to show Ms Schiavo re sponding to voices and other movement in her room, the autopsy said that Ms Schiavo was blind in her final days. The medical examiner said she would not have been able to eat or drink had she been fed by mouth, as h er parents had requested. The autopsy found no evidence that she suffere d a heart attack, or that she had been given harmful drugs that may have accelerated her death. Thogmartin at the news conference, said that term referred to a clinical diagnosis, not a pathological diagnosis. But , he said, "There was nothing in the autopsy that is inconsistent with p ersistent vegetative state." The lawyer for the Schindlers said at a news conference today that the pa rents continue to believe their daughter was not in a persistent vegetat ive state and thus should not have had her feeding tube removed. "If Teri Schiavo had wanted to die, she had a lot of opportunities to die ," said the lawyer, David Gibbs III. Ms Schiavo's parents sought the autopsy to determine the cause of Ms Sc hiavo's mysterious collapse the night of Feb. She had suffered extensive brain damage when her heart stopped beating and she lacked a pulse for more than one hour by the time emergency medical personnel arr ived. After her collapse, she had been able to breathe on her own and had perio ds of wakefulness, but most doctors agreed that Ms Schiavo was in a "pe rsistent vegetative state" and incapable of thought or emotion. Her pare nts however, argued that their daughter was minimally conscious and coul d recover through an intensive therapeutic regimen. The question of whet her Ms Schiavo should have been allowed to die, as her husband said she wanted, or be turned over to the care of her parents, who wanted to kee p her alive, went on for seven years, and reached the Vatican, the White House, Congress and various state and federal courts, before finally re aching the Supreme Court, which declined to hear her case. Her death on the last day of March came 13 days after a feeding tube that was keeping her alive had been removed. Her husband had sought the remo val of the tube over the objection of the Schindlers. At various times, the Schindlers accused Mr Schiavo of physically abusin g his wife, and suggested that poisoning or strangulation may have led t o her collapse. Mr Schiavo has repeatedly denied abusing his wife, and the medical examiner said several times today that there was no evidence of trauma consistent with physical abuse before her collapse. At one point during the drawn-out dispute, President Bush returned to the White House from a Texas vacation late on a Sunday night solely to sign a law that allowed Ms Schiavo's parents to seek a federal court review of the facts of the case. He praised Congress for "voting to give Terry Schiavo's parents another opportunity to save their daughter's life." Ms Schiavo's husband and parents, once close, battled over her fate sinc e 1998, when Mr Schiavo asked a state court's permission to remove life support. Courts also found credible Mr Schiavo's testimony that his wife, who lef t no written directive, had said on several occasions that she would not want life-prolonging measures to be used for her. Mr Schiavo's lawyer, George Felos, said today that his client was "pleas ed to hear the results" of the autopsy because it confirmed many of the points Mr Schiavo has argued for several years. Mr Felos also said tha t Mr Schiavo had decided to release autopsy photos of his wife's brain in order to dispel any notion that she could have recovered. He feels it is important to show "what is so apparent from these photogra phs," said Mr Felos. |
| news.tbo.com/news/MGBQ67CTI6E.html Replayed on countless news shows and posted on the Internet, the clips he lp drive national sympathy for Schiavo's parents, who oppose their daugh ter's court-ordered feeding tube removal. Seen without context, the snippets raise questions for laypeople. Less widely known are four hours of images, taped in summer 2002, of Schi avo's inert stare from her hospice bed. They more accurately show the Pi nellas Park woman, argue some doctors and Michael Schiavo, who says his wife is brain-dead and should die in dignity after 15 years in what doct ors term a persistent vegetative state. George Greer, a Pasco-Pinellas circuit judge, ruled the tapes fail to pro ve Terri Schiavo's brain still works. She clearly does not consistently respond to her mother,'' the judge wr ote in 2002 after hearing from five doctors with divided opinions. Yet, all the clips have become powerful icons in a public relations war o ver Terri Schiavo's fate. One family's bitter feud - crossed by religious advocates, politicians an d moral debates over life and death - climaxed Friday afternoon when doc tors stopped nutrition that has kept Schiavo alive since her 1990 heart attack at age 26. However the Schiavo case plays out, the carefully edited Terri Schiavo vi deos exemplify how pictures increasingly drive public opinion in today's video-fueled society. years,'' syndicated columnist Ellen Goodman marveled in 2003 after Flo rida Gov. Jeb Bush and state lawmakers enacted Terri's Law'' and got h er feeding tube restored after a court ordered it removed. Video Becomes The Story' Powerful images, more than words, control how people form opinions about polarizing issues of the day, from US military abuses at Iraq's Abu Gh raib prison to a Michael Jackson documentary of him nuzzling a teenager who now accuses the pop star of sexual abuse. One of the first examples of how video can instantly galvanize public thi nking was of Los Angeles motorist Rodney King's 1991 beating by police. The video becom es the thing everyone can pass judgment on,'' said Bob Thompson, directo r of the Center for the Study of Popular Television at Syracuse Universi ty. Without compelling pictures, some stories might never earn the traction t hey seem to gain with wide exposure. Hundreds of children, for example, disappear every year. But the 2004 Sar asota kidnapping of 11-year-old Carlie Brucia, caught on a carwash secur ity camera and replayed as every parent's nightmare, became a national t rauma. Pictures, the adage goes, never lie, but video can be edited. Some media experts warn of distortion as images spread instantly worldwide while vi ewers may be unaware of fuller contexts. When the eye and ear compete, the eye wins,'' said Al Tompkins, a forme r broadcaster now on the faculty of the Poynter Institute media think ta nk in St. Tompkins said the Schiavo videos show different things to different viewe rs. To be fair, everyone needs a fuller context to decide what they mean . But the pictures become the truth, to many, through repetition. It's the job of journalists to say, Understand where it was shot and w hen and by whom,' '' Tompkins said. He acknowledged that seldom happens, with Schiavo stories wallpapering the news and a hunger for Schiavo pic tures where few exist. It's never a wrong time to do the right thing,'' Tompkins said, adding that the media should be faulted for overusing the same edited Schiavo t apes. At the same time, the image of Schiavo appearing to respond fills news ph otography's need to show maximum action,'' like the high jumper at the height of the leap, Tompkins said. The Schiavo videos were taped as part of a court-ordered medical evaluati on three years ago. They are filed at the Pinellas County courthouse, al though few have viewed them in their entirety. They first were shown in public in October 2002 during a court proceeding . In them, Terri Schiavo interacts with her mother and neurologist Willi am Hammesfahr, who was chosen by her parents. Schiavo appears to follow orders to open her eyes wide and then hold them tightly shut, albeit belatedly after repeated instructions. George Karalekas, a video editor at News Channel 8, said no record is kep t of how often the Schiavo tapes have aired on WFLA, but he estimated hu ndreds of times. Any story we've done, we would incorporate the picture in some way,'' h e said. Forest Carr, News Channel 8 news director, defended repeated use of the v ideos, but said the public has been prevented from seeing Schiavo in ful l context. Rather than focus on how much that snippet appears to say and its influ ence on the case, to me, the question ought to be how is it this person has been held incommunicado? There are huge public policy implications i n this case, yet the public's been prevented from knowing much about the case. com on Friday: When I watch or hear of this case in the media, they are always showing pictures of Ter ri from 2001. We need to see recent pictures of Terri so that we ca n also witness her progress. |