| WIKI | FAQ | Tech FAQ | |
 http://csua.com/feed/ | |
| ||||||
| 5/25 |
| 2005/6/13-15 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:38107 Activity:kinda low |
6/13 "The more accurate way to approach this right now is to concede that
... the terrorists and the terrorism in Iraq is not going to be
settled, through military options or military operations,"
Brig. Gen. Donald Alston, the chief U.S. military spokesman in Iraq,
said last week ... Gen. George W. Casey, the top U.S. commander in
Iraq, ... calling the military's efforts "the Pillsbury Doughboy idea"
... "We push in Baghdad -- they're down to about less than a car bomb
a day in Baghdad over the last week -- but in north-center [Iraq] ...
they've gone up... The political process will be the decisive element."
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/3222424
(Houston Chronicle)
"The level of activity that we see today from a military standpoint,
I think, will clearly decline. I think they're in the last throes, if
you will, of the insurgency." -VP Cheney (May 31 2005)
[Another article] Lt. Col. Frederick Wellman ... referred to tribal
members joining the insurgency to seek revenge for relatives killed in
fighting. "We can't kill them all," Wellman said.
"When I kill one, I create three."
\_ This is selective picking and choosing of quotes and events.
Tribal politics is fairly complex business, but generally the foreign
insurgency has been pissing the tribes off more often than not.
Terrorist events in Baghdad are down 90% from 2 months ago.
Al Zarqawi is either dead or seriously wounded and recovering in
Syria, with a lot of his subordinates captured. Perhaps most
importantly, though, security functions are mostly an Iraqi affair
now, with some US help. I think the appropriate way to handle
the insurgency is to make it the Iraqis vs the insurgents fight, which
is what has been happening. -- ilyas
the insurgency is to make it the Iraqis vs the insurgents fight,
which is what has been happening. -- ilyas
\_ I think you are much more highly educated than I am, but
do you really think the insurgent forces are led by one guy?
Al Zarqawi might be a creation of US intelligence. I find it
hard to believe that a leading terrorist group in Iraq would
put out a press release when their alleged leader is
wounded. - danh
\_ No, I don't think the insurgents are 'led' by one guy, because
the insurgency has a very decentralized structure. Having
said that, I don't think Al Zarqawi is a fantasy, or something
other than a very dangerous lunatic. That American psyops
might be putting out fakeouts of various sorts is a good
point. I have heard of some sort of letter to Al Zarqawi
that was 'intercepted' by US forces that was complaining about
how the insurgency wasn't going so well, the locals are turning
against us, etc. Smelled like a psyops thing to me. -- ilyas
\_ Um.. Where do you get "Terrorist events in Baghdad are down
90% from 2 months ago"? In fact, I couldn't even guess where
you got any of these "facts".
\_ I got the 90% thing from http://orbat.com. They pontificate
quite a lot there (probably for fun), but editorializing is
clearly marked as such, and they ARE military analysts for hire,
and not the press, so I trust them more than I would trust
pretty much any publication. -- ilyas
\_ Where's their data? I see them quoting a "Baghdad bombing
index", but they don't give their methodology or data.
\_ Hey guys, don't doubt that insurgent activities in Baghdad
are much reduced with a 1-2 week-old effort to concentrate
on securing the city.
Casey talking about Pillsbury Doughboy, explained:
You poke in Fallujah, they appear elsewhere.
You poke in Baghdad, they appear elsewhere.
You don't have enough U.S. soldiers or have trained up
enough Iraqi police / army (yet) so you can't cover the
whole doughboy, figuratively speaking.
\_ I think that was the bit where incidents are down but total
deaths have doubled or tripled. Lies, damned lies, and
military PR.
you got any of these "facts".
\_ http://icasualties.org/oif
(month/avg. daily casualty)
jun05/2.77 nov04/4.70
may05/2.84 oct04/2.16
apr05/1.73 sep04/2.90
mar05/1.29 aug04/2.42
feb05/2.14 jul04/1.87
jan05/4.10 jun04/1.67
dec04/2.48 may04/2.71
\_ He probably meant "total deaths including civilians",
but yes, I do think he needed to be clear since it
could easily be judged as misleading otherwise.
\_ Civilians are much softer targets than the military,
and you can't compare the intensity of attacks on
the military with the intensity of attacks on
civilians by looking at the casualty count. It
is possible for the intensity of attacks to drop
while simultaneously for the civilian casualty to
increase (if the focus of the attacks switch from
the military to the civilians).
\_ Both you and ilyas need to re-evaluate what the
"Pillsbury Doughboy idea" is in the context above.
This has actually been going on for at least half a year in
Iraq.
\_ Try "for two years.." Ever since we "won".
\_ Well, I didn't want to overreach with ilyas here, in
all seriousness.
\_ Please don't sign for me. It was ilyas' right to
sign his name to his replies, as well as it should
be mine not to sign.
Yes, I know kchang's tool makes it easy. -op
\_ I am amused that you ask for people's indulgence
in this matter, while not noticing your own
indulgence may be required in the matter of posting
with civility.
\_ Am I not posting with civility? Please note
that I originally didn't include "in all
seriousness". I put it in there because I
didn't want to sound sarcastic. -jctwu
\_ Wow. Based on the two posts here, it's either, "Oh my god
we're so screwed and the administration is totally lying or
clueless" or "Hooray! We're winning and things are totally
swinging in our favor and the administration is *wonderful*
and goddamn that liberal media bias..." I suspect you're
both probably full of it. *shrug*
\_ Actually, no. ilyas just has a strong opinion that the
quotes are not representative of what's truly going on in
Iraq, whereas I just posted recent quotes from extremely
senior U.S. commanders on the ground (non-civilian), a
lieutenant colonel, and one from VP Cheney. -op
\_ Really, "picking and choosing quotes"? The title of the article
is: "Military can't stop insurgency, officers say -
They believe the way to end the fighting is through Iraqi
politics". If you have a complaint, it's that the article is not
representative of the military's true beliefs on Iraq.
I do agree that the LTC's statement is the weakest, but it does
remain his opinion.
Also, Casey's statement directly addresses your Baghdad
statistic. Please read carefully next time. -op
\_ I actually don't disagree. The military _can't_ stop the
insurgency, by the very nature of insurgency. This isn't
an Iraq-specific problem at all. The US is slowly learning
appropriate imperialist techniques from their friends, the
British -- make it an arab vs arab fight. Setting 'natives'
against each other was the only way to run a world-wide empire
for a relatively small and unpopulous island nation. I also
think stating that the insurgency is not a military problem
is not the same as stating 'we are so screwed!' I think it's
just the brass talking sense. The winning condition for the
US is for the insurgency to become an internal Iraqi government
problem, perhaps managed with some outside, international
help. -- ilyas
\_ I...err...that's actually pretty insightful.
\_ Don't forget that the Iraq government can't fall apart.
The means can vary but the result should be success.
I would hesitate to say it would be victory if we made
it the Iraqi government's problem and they imploded, but
I shouldn't need to point that out, right ... we're all
smart?
\_ Please note that I never used the phrase "we are so
screwed!" in any of the posts in this thread, nor
intended this as a meaning. My meaning was in the
quotes and URL I presented, which was that we now have
extremely senior U.S. commanders on the ground saying
themselves what I quoted. VP Cheney's quote was also
listed as one from an extremely senior civilian leader. |
| 5/25 |
|
| www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/3222424 Instead, officers say, the only way to end the guerrilla war is through I raqi politics an arena that so far has been crippled by divisions betwee n Shiite Muslims, whose coalition dominated the January elections, and S unni Muslims, who are a minority in Iraq but form the base of support fo r the insurgency. "I think the more accurate way to approach this right now is to concede t hat ... this insurgency is not going to be settled, the terrorists and t he terrorism in Iraq is not going to be settled, through military option s or military operations," Brig. Donald Alston, the chief US mili tary spokesman in Iraq, said last week, in a comment that echoes what ot her senior officers say. George W Casey, the top US commander in Iraq, expressed similar s entiments, calling the military's efforts "the Pillsbury Doughboy idea" pressing the insurgency in one area only causes it to rise elsewhere. "Like in Baghdad," Casey said during an interview with two newspaper repo rters, including one from Knight Ridder, last week. "We push in Baghdad they're down to about less than a car bomb a day in Baghdad over the las t week but in north-center (Iraq) ... Willing to negotiate The recognition that a military solution is not in the offing has led US . and Iraqi officials to signal they are willing to negotiate with insur gent groups, or their intermediaries. "It has evolved in the course of normal business," said a senior US dip lomatic official in Baghdad, who spoke on the condition of anonymity bec ause of US policy to defer to the Iraqi government on Iraqi political matters. "We have now encountered people who at least claim to have some form of a relationship with the insurgency." The message is markedly different from previous statements by US offici als who spoke of quashing the insurgency by rounding up or killing "dead enders" loyal to former dictator Saddam Hussein. As recently as two wee ks ago, in a Memorial Day interview on CNN's Larry King Live, Vice Presi dent Dick Cheney said he thought the insurgency was in its "last throes. " But the violence has continued unabated, even though 44 of the 55 Iraqis portrayed in the military's famous "deck of cards" have been killed or c aptured, including Saddam. Frederick P Wellman, who works with the task force overseeing t he training of Iraqi security troops, said the insurgency doesn't seem t o be running out of new recruits, a dynamic fueled by tribal members see king revenge for relatives killed in fighting. Sunnis not included American officials had hoped that January's national elections would blun t the insurgency by giving the population hope for their political futur e But so far, the political process has not in any meaningful way inclu ded Iraq's Sunni Muslim population. Most of Iraq's Sunnis Muslims, motivated either by fear or boycott, did n ot vote, and they hold a scant 17 seats in the 275-member parliament. Unless Sunnis develop confidence that the government will represent them, few here see the insurgency fading. Asked about the success in suppressing the insurgency in Baghdad recently the result of a series of large-scale raids that targeted primarily Sun ni neighborhoods Brig. "We have taken down factories, major cells, we have made good progress in (stopping) the production of (car bombs) in Baghdad," Alston said. |
| icasualties.org/oif -> icasualties.org/oif/ Wounded In Action According to The DoD Period Wounded Jun-2005 51 May-2005 551 Apr-2005 590 Mar-2005 362 Feb-2005 408 Jan-2005 496 Dec-2004 540 Nov-2004 1426 Oct-2004 648 Sep-2004 706 Aug-2004 895 Jul-2004 552 Jun-2004 589 May-2004 757 Apr-2004 1215 Mar-2004 323 Feb-2004 150 Jan-2004 188 Dec-2003 261 Nov-2003 337 Oct-2003 413 Sep-2003 247 Aug-2003 181 Jul-2003 226 Jun-2003 147 May-2003 54 Apr-2003 340 Mar-2003 202 Total 12855 Last update from the DoD: 10-Jun-05 Notes: Latest Military Fatality Date: Jun 13, 2005 Total Fatalities since May 1, 2003: 1638 March 20th through May 1st: 139 Hostile US Fatalities Since May 1, 2003: 1204 Hostile Fatalities Since May 1, 2003: 1313 US deaths since July 2, 2003: 1496 (Pres. A suicide car bomb detonated on Monday near a US military convoy in B aghdad's western district of Yarmouk, causing casualties among the US so ldiers and wounding four Iraqi civilians, witnesses said. The Iraqi Army has said that four Iraqi soldiers were killed in clash es with gunmen near Tilul al-Baj area in Ninawa Governorate, in northern Iraq, last night. A military source in Mosul area said that four gunmen were also killed. Insurgents attacked an Iraqi police checkpoint on the main road betwe en Baghdad and the town of Baquba on Monday, killing four policemen and injuring 10, police said. An Iraqi army patrol shot and killed an Iraqi man in Fallujah, the to wn's hospital reported. Gunmen killed a female Interior Ministry employe e in Baghdad's Sadr City district, police said. Police found the body of an unidentified man in Sadr City. A US embassy spokesman said a diplomat, whom he declined to identif y, was in the area but was unaffected. He said the attack appeared to be unrelated to the official's movements, but declined to give further det ails. Another soldie r was killed in Samarra when a bomb exploded in the path of his vehicle. Two Iraqi police commandos and two soldiers were killed in fighting in Samarra. Also on Monday a member of Iraq's infrastructure protection force was shot dead near the northern oil refinery town of Baiji, and an Iraqi bu sinessman was gunned down as he left a US base at the airport in Dhuluiy ah. Lance Corporal Andrew Kilpela was killed Friday in a roadside explosi on. His family learned of the death that night, but it hasn't been forma lly announced by the Defense Department. A Kurdish woman human rights activist, Shiman Ahmad Kader, has been k idnapped by armed men in the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk, an official from the Kurdistan Democratic Party said Monday. Since last June 13 -- when 825 members of the US military had died in Iraq -- the insurgency that took shape with the fall of Saddam Hussei n has increased its toll on American forces and Iraqi soldiers and civil ians alike. In Baghdad, a suicide bomber detonated his vehicle near a US military patrol. Witnesses said a US army Humvee was on fire after the blast and said a US helicopter arrived to evacuate the wounded. An Interior Ministry spokesman and police had said earlier that a US . military convoy had been attacked by a suicide car bomber in the west of Baghdad at around 2 pm (1000 GMT) and that two civilians nearby had been killed and five wounded. Two Soldiers assigned to the 155th Brigade Combat Team, II Marine Exp editionary Force (Forward), were killed June 11 when an IED detonated ne ar their vehicle. The incident took place during combat operations about 12 miles southeast of Al Amiriyah. Two Soldiers assigned to the 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditio nary Force (Forward), were killed June 11 when their vehicle struck an I ED. The incident took place during combat operations about 18 miles sout hwest of Taqaddum. Six more bodies have been found in Baghdad, most of them tortured bef ore being executed, police said on Monday, bringing to 26 the grim tally of murdered cadavers found in recent days. A mortar attack injured eight from Georgia Army National Guard's 48th Brigade Sunday morning at a forward operating base near the city of Mah mudiyah, brigade officials said. In other violence, a mortar barrage intended for an Iraqi army barrac k in the northern Iraqi town of Tal Afar missed its target and slammed i nto a house, killing a 6-year-old child and wounding five other people, police Capt. Insurgents fired mortar rounds at a funeral for the mother of one of Iraq's most senior police generals on Sunday, killing two people, and th e Shiite-led government pressed the need to open talks with insurgent gr oups. There is no centralized procedure for monitoring scores of contractin g firms rebuilding Iraq with US funds, according to the military. The controls that do exist have been criticized for failing to keep track of millions. Two years ago, when the pumps ran dry at Iraq's petrol filling statio ns, angry motorists muttered that Americans were stealing the fuel to dr ive their tanks... Iraqis inspecting the damage of US air strikes in western Iraq on S unday challenged American assertions that the raids had killed 40 insurg ents, saying there were no guerrillas in the area. Two soldiers were killed Saturday when a bomb exploded near their veh icle outside Amiriyah, some 25 miles west of Baghdad. Two other soldiers also died Saturday when their vehicle struck a bomb near Taqaddum, 45 m iles west of Baghdad. RSS Feed Current Time in Baghdad: 7:04:57 AM Please Help Keep This Site Running. Recent articles about this site have brought many new readers and with th e higher readership comes higher cost. If you have not contributed to th is site please consider making a donation. |
| orbat.com FRAME: site/internal/oobtitle.html FRAME: site/internal/oobmenu.html FRAME: main |