Berkeley CSUA MOTD:Entry 37944
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2005/6/2-3 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:37944 Activity:moderate
6/2     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8008873
        Freedom in Iraq. Things are getting better. I have no doubt that
        Bush will be remembered as the greatest leader in the world,
        liberating and educating the Iraqi savages.
        \_ Yeah, you know.. things aren't moving fast enough after
           a war. Why it took 11 years to rebuild Japan under U.S.
           occupation, how come a little country like Iraq is taking
           so long! Like today at Starbucks - it took them two minutes
           to make the damn latte! Oh.. what was I talking about again?
           \_ Iraq, Vietnam != Japan, Germany ; Gulf War 2 != WW2
              \_ Iraq != Vietnam.
                 \_ Iraq ~= Vietnam
                    \_ Only when viewed from an extrememly narrow
                       single-minded viewpoint.  The approximation is
                       essentially useless.
                       \_ Your statements are true only when viewed from an
                          extremely narrow, single-minded, and superficial
                          viewpoint.
                          The similarities lie in three critical elements:
                          (1) We went in under assumptions that proved to be
                              either dubious or false.
                          (1a) The assumptions we went in on were ones in which
                               protecting America was fundamental.
                          (2) When we leave {Iraq,Vietnam} because of
                              political realities even with our
                              superior technology and track record of winning
                              almost every battle we fight, we might lose.
                          (3) We didn't have an effective insurgency in
                              post-WW2 {Japan,Germany}.
                          But I will give you several ways they're essentially
                          different:
                          (1) History isn't written in Iraq yet.  We might
                          (1) The assumptions we went in on were ones in which
                              protecting America was fundamental.
                              (that's actually the same not different, oh well)
                          (2) History isn't written in Iraq yet.  We might
                              eventually win (form a stable government that
                              doesn't build WMDs and opposes terrorism).
                          (2) Deaths of U.S. soldiers are two orders of
                          (3) Deaths of U.S. soldiers are two orders of
                              magnitude lower, and there is no draft.
                              \_ uh, 50K U.S. soldiers died in Vietnam in
                                 13 years.  We have over 1K dead in about
                                 2 years.  That's at most one order of
                                 magnitude different.  -tom
                                 \_ Shit, you're right.
                                    I was looking at Wikipedia and didn't
                                    realize the "287,232" was RVN + U.S.
                                    Re-doing the math, yes, "at most" but
                                    around one order of magnitude difference
                                    in terms of annual rate of deaths.
                                 \_ Okay, I was dividing by 7 years of having
                                    a significant troop present, which gives
                                    a significant troop presence, which gives
                                    a 60 times difference in deaths anually,
                                    but that might be a wrong assumption.
                                 \_ What's an order of magnitude between
                                    friends.
                          \_ Well, crap.  We essentially agree, you just
                             think your reasons they're the same are more
                             important than mine that they're different.
                             I'm too lazy to list a bunch of reasons
                             they're the same or different, I'll just say
                             the A-3 is irrelevent to my point. -!op
                          \_ I don't think deaths really matter to the
                             Americans. 1600 dead isn't a lot and most people
                             don't care, since there's no draft. What really
                             matters is how much our wonder-weapons cost and
                             how much the military is draining our economy, and
                             how worthless our money has become over the past
                             few years.
                             \_ Deaths really matter to Americans if there's
                                a draft.  But yeah, no draft, then it's the
                                money we spend on an inefficiently executed
                                war for core assumptions that turned out to
                                be wrong.  Oops.
        \_ With their new founded freedom of speech they can now say anything,
           including bad things about the evil US imperial occupation and wage
           media war in the entire Middle East region.
           \_ This will be fun when they do something akin to Iran (and what
              Turkey did once) and vote to abandon democracy for theocracy.
              \_ The US gov hoped the Iraqi people would vote for a secular
                 government, but instead the Iraqi people voted for theocracy:
           http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21679-2005Feb13.html
2025/05/25 [General] UID:1000 Activity:popular
5/25    

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2010/7/20-8/11 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53889 Activity:low
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2010/2/22-3/30 [Politics/Foreign/MiddleEast/Iraq] UID:53722 Activity:nil
2/20    Ok serious question, NOT political.  This is straight up procedural.
        Has it been declared that we didn't find WMD in iraq? (think so).
        So why did we go into iraq (what was the gain), and if nobody really
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        \_ Political stability, military strategy (Iran), and to prevent
           Saddam from financing terrorism.
	...
Cache (2005 bytes)
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8008873
Iraqi family lives in fear May 27: For one Iraqi family, living in one of the safest neighborhoods i n Baghdad requires a host of compromises and feels like being imprison ed by the unrelenting violence. Nightly News Baghdad family: 'This is not life' Parents do what they can to keep children safe By Richard Engel Correspondent NBC News Updated: 7:43 pm ET May 27, 2005 BAGHDAD - Salma Hassan's world has been reduced to a cement courtyard. It 's where she bakes flat bread so she doesn't have to go the bakery. And though the Hassan family lives in Karadah, one of Baghdad's safest neigh borhoods, the Hassans feel its too dangerous to go outside. So now 18 of members of the extended family are crammed into five rooms w ith dirty water, backed-up sewers and sporadic electricity. But the bigg est hardship is feeling like prisoners of the unrelenting violence. On Baghdad television, a pool of blood and shattered car -- yet another b ombing -- dominates the news. The Hassans don't dare go out at night, except Subeih, who has to. The $1 30 a month he earns as a night watchman supports much of the family. Thr ee months ago a mortar killed 12 of Subeihs co-workers. Now Subeih is trying to change his shift to avoid the risky nighttime dut y Subeih may provide for the family, but it's his wife of 35 years, Faydia, who protects it. With her cow, which is now the family's lifeline and insurance policy. It's a precaution in case she needs to bo rrow salt or flour from them. And she never forgets the police on the co rner, in case she needs a favor from them too. His 11-year-old niece, Duaa, moved to Baghdad fro m Fallujah six months ago, to escape fighting there. Some people are sending kids to school with body guards, but I can't aff ord that, says Subeih. Some students were running away, and climbi ng over the school fence. But it is how the Hassans are living, by making their world smaller, not knowing when it will be safe again for their grandchildren to play outsi de the courtyard.
Cache (5807 bytes)
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21679-2005Feb13.html
All RSS Feeds Analysis Iraq Winners Allied With Iran Are the Opposite of US Vision By Robin Wright Washington Post Staff Writer Monday, February 14, 2005; Page A08 When the Bush administration decided to invade Iraq two years ago, it env isioned a quick handover to handpicked allies in a secular government th at would be the antithesis of Iran's theocracy -- potentially even a foi l to Tehran's regional ambitions. But, in one of the greatest ironies of the US intervention, Iraqis inst ead went to the polls and elected a government with a strong religious b ase -- and very close ties to the Islamic republic next door. It is the last thing the administration expected from its costly Iraq policy -- $3 00 billion and counting, US and regional analysts say. Adnan Pachachi's US-backed party fared poorly in the election. Sign Up Now Yesterday, the White House heralded the election and credited the US ro le. In a statement, President Bush praised Iraqis "for defying terrorist threats and setting their country on the path of democracy and freedom. And I congratulate every candidate who stood for election and those who will take office once the results are certified." Yet the top two winning parties -- which together won more than 70 percen t of the vote and are expected to name Iraq's new prime minister and pre sident -- are Iran's closest allies in Iraq. Thousands of members of the United Iraqi Alliance, a Shiite-dominated sla te that won almost half of the 85 million votes and will name the prime minister, spent decades in exile in Iran. Most of the militia members i n its largest faction were trained in Shiite-dominated Iran. And the winning Kurdish alliance, whose co-leader Jalal Talabani is the t op nominee for president, has roots in a province abutting Iran, which l ong served as its economic and political lifeline. "This is a government that will have very good relations with Iran. Talabani is very close to Teh ran," said Juan Cole, a University of Michigan expert on Iraq. "In terms of regional geopolitics, this is not the outcome that the United States was hoping for." Added Rami Khouri, Arab analyst and editor of Beirut's Daily Star: "The i dea that the United States would get a quick, stable, prosperous, pro-Am erican and pro-Israel Iraq has not happened. Most of the neoconservative assumptions about what would happen have proven false." For decades, both Republican and Democratic administrations played Baghdad and Tehran off each other to ensure neither became a regional giant threatening or dominant over US allies, notably Saudi Arabia and the oil-rich Gulf sheikdoms. But now, Cole said, Iraq and Iran are likely to take similar positions on many issues, from oil prices to US policy on Iran. "If the United Sta tes had decided three years ago to bomb Iran, it would have produced joy in Baghdad," he added. Conversely, the Iraqi secular democrats backed most strongly by the Bush administration lost big. During his State of the Union address last year , Bush invited Adnan Pachachi, a longtime Sunni politician and then-pres ident of the Iraqi Governing Council, to sit with first lady Laura Bush. Pachachi's party fared so poorly in the election that it won no seats i n the national assembly. And current Prime Minister Ayad Allawi, backed by the CIA during his year s in exile and handpicked by US and UN officials to lead the interim government, came in third. He addressed a joint session of Congress in September, a rare honor reserved for heads of state of the closest US allies. But now, US hopes that Allawi will tally enough votes to vie a s a compromise candidate and continue his leadership are unrealistic, an alysts say. Unless the rulin g coalition reaches out to broaden itself to include all groups, the ins urgency will continue -- and may gain ground." 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